Pirates/Braves ending

[jdmara]

I would like to see the video that shows proof that he was tagged. I believe that most of us would call the out but this is a potentially spectacular call.

I usually don't pay much attention to the pitch trackers but I'm curious about this very lengthy game. Do they have trackers that break it down this game and what the "correct ball/strike percentage" was?

-Josh

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I would like to see the video that shows proof that he was tagged. I believe that most of us would call the out but this is a potentially spectacular call.

I usually don't pay much attention to the pitch trackers but I'm curious about this very lengthy game. Do they have trackers that break it down this game and what the "correct ball/strike percentage" was?

-Josh

Potentially spectacular? Making this call is the equivalent of saying that a piece of thread did not touch the needle as it passed through the eye.

Maybe I am just too old school (I never thought I'd say that), but to me, this is, without a doubt, picking up the poop-covered end of the stick for no good reason. There's one thing to have courage to make the right call, but when the ball beats the runner by *this much*, the call had better be 100% defensibly right. In other words, the question that needs to be asked here is: Prove to me he missed the tag. I agree with the announcers (another first) -- unless there's clear daylight, I'm calling the runner out.

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Potentially spectacular? Making this call is the equivalent of saying that a piece of thread did not touch the needle as it passed through the eye.

Maybe I am just too old school (I never thought I'd say that), but to me, this is, without a doubt, picking up the poop-covered end of the stick for no good reason. There's one thing to have courage to make the right call, but when the ball beats the runner by *this much*, the call had better be 100% defensibly right. In other words, the question that needs to be asked here is: Prove to me he missed the tag. I agree with the announcers (another first) -- unless there's clear daylight, I'm calling the runner out.

I couldn't agree more. I constantly side with umpires when having discussion amongst family or friends. But this one can't be defended. Meals just missed it. It doesn't make him a bad umpire, he just kicked it for whatever reason. It happens.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Potentially spectacular? Making this call is the equivalent of saying that a piece of thread did not touch the needle as it passed through the eye.

Maybe I am just too old school (I never thought I'd say that), but to me, this is, without a doubt, picking up the poop-covered end of the stick for no good reason. There's one thing to have courage to make the right call, but when the ball beats the runner by *this much*, the call had better be 100% defensibly right. In other words, the question that needs to be asked here is: Prove to me he missed the tag. I agree with the announcers (another first) -- unless there's clear daylight, I'm calling the runner out.

I compare this play to a play Davey Phillips had at the plate during the 1987 World Series at Minnesota. According to Phillips' autobiography, he had a play at the plate in Minnesota. Minnesota was on offense. The Minnesota runner came in and the throw beat him to the plate by a mile (like last night). Phillips called him out. There was no argument from the runner, any coaches or the manager. About a minute later (during the commercial break) the whole stadium starts booing. Apparently, the replay showed that the runner's foot touched the plate a second or two ahead of the actual tag. As Phillips wrote (and I paraphrase), if I had called him "safe" I would have had to eject half the St. Louis dugout. As it was, he didn't hear a peep at anytime from anyone about the call (other than the fans' booing).

Now the umpires have no safety valve. If Meals' had gone old school and called him "out" because the ball beat the runner by a mile, but the tag was actually missed by an inch or two...then it would have be called "the worst call ever," or "a horrible way to end a classic game." So now, because of HD replays he (umpires) have to ignore what worked so well for 100+ years and try to determine if F2 actually did just nick the runner with the tag, or if F2 did, in fact, just barely miss the tag.

I'm am convinced from my conversations with various persons that a majority of MLB umpires would vote FOR instant replay. They are just opposed to a college football system where someone in the booth who is not a part of the crew overrules them. They want to be able to correct their own mistakes (more like the NFL replay system). Call it a pride thing.

[Toadman15241]

MLB thought that the tag was conclusive on the replays. I think it's time that some on this board either (a) get HD or (b) stop driving.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Toadman15241

MLB thought that the tag was conclusive on the replays. I think it's time that some on this board either (a) get HD or (b) stop driving.

I do not care what MLB says. They are trying to cover their *** and make everyone responsible but them. And that is pretty much all I have had is HD TVs. That is all I watch and there was no angle that showed conclusively the tag, just like there are not a lot of conclusive replays in other sports where there is no change to many calls.

Peace

[rngrck]

Just look at the runner, did he think or act like he was safe?? A tuff call to end a game like that.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I didn't play baseball (golf was a Spring sport in Ohio when I was in H.S.) but Mark, Jr., and Andy (my younger son, but doesn't officiate basketball or umpire baseball, but Junior and I are working on him) both played baseball.

They both do not understand the expected call. Why? Because they feel that since MLB players are the best players in the world, they believe that they should be held to the highest standard of play. Just because the throw beat the runner, doesn't been the runner should be called out. The throw is only the first part of the play, the second part is the tag. Another play that bugs them is call the Runner out on a force at 2B to start a DP when the Fielder is only in the zip code of the bag; I am sure we have seen that call when the Fielder wasn't even in the same area code as the bag.

I guess I am saying screw the expected call: Call it correctly the first time and if idiots want to act like idiots, let them and take care of business.

MTD, Sr.

[DG]

OUT, OUT, OUT, play on. I don't remember ever seeing a blown call that was so easy to make correctly. This one made national news tonight, not just sports channels. Not only is out the correct call, it is the expected call. My wife pointed this one out to me, she saw it on O'Reilly show for heaven's sake.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I

They both do not understand the expected call. Why? Because they feel that since MLB players are the best players in the world, they believe that they should be held to the highest standard of play. Just because the throw beat the runner, doesn't been the runner should be called out. The throw is only the first part of the play, the second part is the tag. Another play that bugs them is call the Runner out on a force at 2B to start a DP when the Fielder is only in the zip code of the bag; I am sure we have seen that call when the Fielder wasn't even in the same area code as the bag.

IMO, they do not understand the expected call because it was not explained to them properly.

You said

The throw is only the first part of the play, the second part is the tag.

The aforementioned is not a valid definition of the expected call. We are not talking bang bang or Close plays.

here's the expected call.

1. Runner is going to be out by a good margin
2. QUALITY throw
3. Tag where it it supposed to be.

Example:

R1 stealing

The throw beats R1 by some 6-10 feet. F4/F6 has glove down near base = OUT. As they say in Brooklyn NY "Forget about" the actual tag the runner is OUT.

The aforementioned is the way the game was called (and hardly a peep from either side) UNTIL the advent of Super Slo Mo Replays and differerent angles and the play being reviewed a zillion times.

Same with the neighborhood. We are talking about a play in which the runner is out by a mile. Why have F4/F6 risk injury - no need to. As long as they are in the vicinity of the bag and the throw is a quality throw used to be good enough.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Pete Booth

[zm1283]

The funniest part of this might be the fanboy reaction in the comment sections of these websites:

I'm not even a Pirates fan, but when you see something like this, you wonder what has happened to the standards for umpires in our game today. What may be the worst thing is that the commissioner COULD do something about this kind of injustice but he refuses to. This is cowardly but it's the way it is. We the People are continuously victimized by injustices of this kind, but when they happen on a ballfield they really stick out and remind us we're all at the whim of fate. The only difference is that here we have something that could be done about it but Bud Selig is chosing the coward's way out by defaulting on the decision to initiate instant replay.

It has gotten to the point where people look for anything to find fault in umpires, right or wrong. They're supposed to take any and all bullsh*t from the dugout on balls/strikes because "No one else knew they were saying anything". They're supposed to let players slam equipment because they were just "Showing emotion". They're not supposed to make otherwise correct calls because they're "Inserting themselves in the game". They're not supposed to play rodeo clown because they're "unapproachable". (Joe West/Francona or West/Gardenhire this year).

These idiots don't take into account all the tough calls that they get right in MLB every day. It's all about players being victimized because there isn't instant replay. Nevermind the fact that instant replay can't fix half of this stuff (Changing out calls to safe, foul to fair, etc). Not to mention instant replay is inconclusive because a lot of the time, like this play in question, you can't even tell for certain after watching every replay available.

People (fans, media) have no idea that umpiring now is as good as it has ever been. Contrary to their pissing and moaning, umpires now are MUCH more approachable than even 15-20 years ago. How often do you see them going "old school" on a manager nowadays?

[aceholleran]

What gets to me is that no one is criticizing the catcher for the shoddy "toreador" tag.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

What gets to me is that no one is criticizing the catcher for the shoddy "toreador" tag.

I don't think the catcher deserves such criticism, myself.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't think the catcher deserves such criticism, myself.

Me neither, now that I know it wasn't a toreador tag - the bullfighter motion comes AFTER the tag as he's trying to show the umpire the ball.

[TussAgee11]

No time to clear the bat, he's tossing it behind him as the ball is coming in. Which makes for no adjustment to swipe tag and way too close to the play.

Screw the bat... if the catcher wants it out of there on a ground ball to the infield he can get rid of it himself. I'm not compromising my job and my call just to provide a courtesy.

19th inning... Meals is a good umpire too. Can happen to any of us.