Home plate appeal costs HS Conn team Championship.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

No. I quoted Dave because I asked a question of him. I posted a play I had been involved in that addresses a problem we can encounter by interjecting ourselves into a game.

I was not replying to myself. I seek a ruling for the play. I have found none that allow an umpire to prevent players from entering a field during a dead ball during HS level play.

Finally, if you watch the OP again, you will see players enter the field while the ball is alive. They are subject to warning and ejection. They can also be cited for interference.

No, you're right, as usual. Your lack of clarity is completely my fault. Sorry bout that.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

No, you're right, as usual. Your lack of clarity is completely my fault. Sorry bout that.

As expected, you cannot accept the fact that you blundered. I asked a very specific question related to the OP, but not involving it. It was asked of Dave. You felt the need to blunder rather than answer my question. Now you feel the need to insult. Sad.

Thankfully, Bob addressed what I already knew. HS umpires do not have a rule to support them from keeping players away from the plate during a celebration on a dead ball. Some understand it to be preventive while others know it to be interjecting and preventing a rules infraction. I try not to do it but it happens. It was meant as advice to others - let them mess up and penalize the infractor(s). The umpire in the OP did.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

As expected, you cannot accept the fact that you blundered. I asked a very specific question related to the OP, but not involving it. It was asked of Dave. You felt the need to blunder rather than answer my question. Now you feel the need to insult. Sad.

Thankfully, Bob addressed what I already knew. HS umpires do not have a rule to support them from keeping players away from the plate during a celebration on a dead ball. Some understand it to be preventive while others know it to be interjecting and preventing a rules infraction. I try not to do it but it happens. It was meant as advice to others - let them mess up and penalize the infractor(s). The umpire in the OP did.

I blundered? In a thread about a liner to left where the apparent winning run scored, you post a semi-related but different situation that happened to you - and posit no question in that post. NO ONE replies to it.

You then quote one person, who was discussing the OP, and ask if there's really any rule about keeping players off the field during a dead ball. (The normal way of asking DAVE a question is PM'ing Dave. If you need everyone to see that you've asked Dave a question, simply put "Dave, " at the beginning of your question. Quoting him, in forum speak, means you are replying to him. He was not in any way referring to your irrelevant post from above.

Yet somehow I blundered by reminding you the ball in our scenario is live.

Incidentally - the answer to your question - whether there is a rule or not regarding keeping people off the field during a dead ball ... is COMPLETELY irrelevant to this situation, and most definitely not "a very specific question related to the OP, but not involving it".

It's remarkable to me that you're unable to understand how threaded conversations work, and repeatedly end up in arguments with people that are completely caused by you're inability to keep things straight ... and somehow this is everyone else's fault.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Thanks Bob. Yes, I knew that there wasn't a rule about this in HS ball. My attempt to evolve the dialogue and banish a myth is for naught. In the OP, the PU had the best look at the runner from where he stood. He has to watch the touch at third, be in position for a possible rundown and fall back for a play at the dish. Third base extended wouldn't work for him too well. He may have been able to prevent the mob by being there, but anticipating that over watching his duties is not likely.

This is 4 man. He should be point of plate period end of story. He is over there floating around in the middle of nowhere for no reason. If you honestly think he was in position, I'm speechless. You watch touches of 3rd and home from point of plate, you don't start snooping around 30 feet up the line. That is true in 2man, 3man, 4man, 6man, Little League, High School, NCAA, MLB.

Umpiring is not simply getting plays right. Its about being in the right spot to see those plays. Was it the right call? It may have been the greatest, ballsiest, correct call for all I know. But it was horrible umpiring. At our state's biggest classification final.

[MikeStrybel]

Dave and Rich were talking about keeping players away from the plate so everyone can see the touch or lack thereof. I related an experience that shows this to be divisive amongst umpires - don't prevent a player from breaking a rule. I asked Dave to cite the rule that allows umpires to keep players away so he can make that call. There is none, as Bob and I have stated twice now.

Finally, thanks for making my point - I asked a question of Dave and you jumped in, not with an answer but a blunder. I quoted him because I wanted him to respond. I never said that he was responding to me. Plenty of people quote others without having offered a prior statement here. Seriously, you messed up and cannot admit it. Threads evolve and questions are asked involving new scenarios all of the time in this forum. You failed to read what I wrote and now want to blame your lack of comprehension on me. Bob read it and responded appropriately. It must have been clear enough for him.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

This is 4 man. He should be point of plate period end of story. He is over there floating around in the middle of nowhere for no reason. If you honestly think he was in position, I'm speechless. You watch touches of 3rd and home from point of plate, you don't start snooping around 30 feet up the line. That is true in 2man, 3man, 4man, 6man, Little League, High School, NCAA, MLB.

Umpiring is not simply getting plays right. Its about being in the right spot to see those plays. Was it the right call? It may have been the greatest, ballsiest, correct call for all I know. But it was horrible umpiring. At our state's biggest classification final.

1) I looked at the photos from the game - four different sites. All show a 3 man crew. If there is a fourth, he isn't listed on a box score or shown in the photos.

2) With a runner moving from second on a shot down the left field line, the PU will drift up for a look at third or move up for a play, since the 3B umpire is out on the line call. You are mistaken about who covers what, where and when. I have read your posts and know you to be pretty aware of mechanics. Watch Quick Pitch in the morning and you will see plenty of HP calls made from 1B extended now. There is no perfect angle.

Consider that most of the umpires working your playoffs don't work 3 or 4 man ball during the year. There is a tendancy to revert to what you know and drift. He may have been caught in an undesirable spot but he had a perfect view of what mattered.

3) Umpiring is about getting the calls right. The best examples of our trade accept that mantra. Joyce, McClelland and Don Denkinger (to name a few) are all on the record in favor about instituting instant replay in MLB. They value getting the call right over evrything else.

4) I recall an NCAA Super Regional involving a game ending balk. At the time, many umpires were upset about the timing of that call. Others reasoned that it was correct and tough calls in big games are part of the job description.

This was a tough call to make. In Illinois, we had a Super Sectional game a decade ago or so that had a player hit a home run only to miss home plate. He was mobbed and walked into the dugout when the coach appealed and the PU agreed. It was a moment that few of us want but my friend nailed the call. He did what was right.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Finally, thanks for making my point - I asked a question of Dave and you jumped in, not with an answer but a blunder. I quoted him because I wanted him to respond. I never said that he was responding to me. Plenty of people quote others without having offered a prior statement here. Seriously, you messed up and cannot admit it. Threads evolve and questions are asked involving new scenarios all of the time in this forum. You failed to read what I wrote and now want to blame your lack of comprehension on me. Bob read it and responded appropriately. It must have been clear enough for him.

Sorry, but I read it the same way he did. They (including Dave) were all referring to the OP, and you referred to Dave's post by asking if there was a rule. It sure looked like you were looking for rules backing for his post ("keep them away") and calling it a dead ball.

Just $.02 from someone without a dog in this particular fight.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Dave and Rich were talking about keeping players away from the plate so everyone can see the touch or lack thereof. I related an experience that shows this to be divisive amongst umpires - don't prevent a player from breaking a rule.

I'm telling the player to "let him touch" so I can see it. I'm not telling the runner to touch, after all.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

1) I looked at the photos from the game - four different sites. All show a 3 man crew. If there is a fourth, he isn't listed on a box score or shown in the photos.

2) With a runner moving from second on a shot down the left field line, the PU will drift up for a look at third or move up for a play, since the 3B umpire is out on the line call. You are mistaken about who covers what, where and when. I have read your posts and know you to be pretty aware of mechanics. Watch Quick Pitch in the morning and you will see plenty of HP calls made from 1B extended now. There is no perfect angle.

Consider that most of the umpires working your playoffs don't work 3 or 4 man ball during the year. There is a tendancy to revert to what you know and drift. He may have been caught in an undesirable spot but he had a perfect view of what mattered.

3) Umpiring is about getting the calls right. The best examples of our trade accept that mantra. Joyce, McClelland and Don Denkinger (to name a few) are all on the record in favor about instituting instant replay in MLB. They value getting the call right over evrything else.

4) I recall an NCAA Super Regional involving a game ending balk. At the time, many umpires were upset about the timing of that call. Others reasoned that it was correct and tough calls in big games are part of the job description.

This was a tough call to make. In Illinois, we had a Super Sectional game a decade ago or so that had a player hit a home run only to miss home plate. He was mobbed and walked into the dugout when the coach appealed and the PU agreed. It was a moment that few of us want but my friend nailed the call. He did what was right.

Your points taken in order, because I don't feel like going through and HTMLing.

1) In CT we go to 4 man crews at some point during the state playoffs. If you piece it together, it must have been 4 man. There is a shot of first base umpire walking in from the line and the third base umpire going out after his fair/foul decision. If they were both on the wings in 3man with a man on base (I believe R1 only but it may have been R2 only) we have bigger problems.

2) You are suggesting move up the 3rd base line for a potential play at third. Of course, if its responsibility. But then go, and let U1 take the plate. You either go or you don't. And if it was a 2man rotation, he should STILL be coming back to the point of the plate once there is no PLAY at third. He never did that.

And if PU goes to 3rd for a potential play, that makes it first base umpire at home to make a ruling on that appeal. Obviously that is not what happened.

His movement outside the dirt circle, 5 feet in foul territory, puts him in terrible position for a play at the plate. Your assertion that MLB guys take alot of plays from 1B line extended does not make it right for him to be where he was. He was WAY past that. Furthermore, according to sources and minds alot more knowledgable about umpiring than mine, 95% of plays at the plate should be taken from 3BX.

Furthermore, even if you DO take a play at the plate from 1BX, you start at the point of plate and then adjust based off if you read swipe tag or collision. At no time do you start from anywhere but point of plate. This is documented in PBUC manuals.

How is being 30 feet away from a touch at home that is moving away from you the perfect place to be? The perfect place to be is standing right behind home plate.

3) About umpiring being about getting the calls right, obviously that is what we are working towards. But great umpires do not think to themselves "i want to get this one right, i want to get this one right, yay! i got this one right". They study positioning and play development. They think HOW am I going to see it, how is this play going to develop, etc. etc. They then position themselves for that play. You can be in awful position and get alot of calls right, but it doesn't mean you're a good umpire. That is the message of every evaluator and umpires who have accomplished alot more than me in baseball. I'll take their word for it. What a few MLB guys opinions on instant replay has to do with that I have no idea.

4) So he made a gutsy call. If he had that, then absolutely he had it and has to call it when appealed. Nobody in this thread has said otherwise.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

As expected, you cannot accept the fact that you blundered. I asked a very specific question related to the OP, but not involving it. It was asked of Dave. You felt the need to blunder rather than answer my question. Now you feel the need to insult. Sad.

Thankfully, Bob addressed what I already knew. HS umpires do not have a rule to support them from keeping players away from the plate during a celebration on a dead ball. Some understand it to be preventive while others know it to be interjecting and preventing a rules infraction. I try not to do it but it happens. It was meant as advice to others - let them mess up and penalize the infractor(s). The umpire in the OP did.

There are numerous game management techniques that don't have specific rules to back them up. Keeping players away from the plate is one of them. You aren't helping or coaching the runner to make sure he touches the plate, you are simply making sure you can see if he does or not.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I blundered? In a thread about a liner to left where the apparent winning run scored, you post a semi-related but different situation that happened to you - and posit no question in that post. NO ONE replies to it.

You then quote one person, who was discussing the OP, and ask if there's really any rule about keeping players off the field during a dead ball. (The normal way of asking DAVE a question is PM'ing Dave. If you need everyone to see that you've asked Dave a question, simply put "Dave, " at the beginning of your question. Quoting him, in forum speak, means you are replying to him. He was not in any way referring to your irrelevant post from above.

Yet somehow I blundered by reminding you the ball in our scenario is live.

Incidentally - the answer to your question - whether there is a rule or not regarding keeping people off the field during a dead ball ... is COMPLETELY irrelevant to this situation, and most definitely not "a very specific question related to the OP, but not involving it".

It's remarkable to me that you're unable to understand how threaded conversations work, and repeatedly end up in arguments with people that are completely caused by you're inability to keep things straight ... and somehow this is everyone else's fault.

These were my exact thoughts while reading this thread. This is not a first for Mike Strybel.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

1) I looked at the photos from the game - four different sites. All show a 3 man crew. If there is a fourth, he isn't listed on a box score or shown in the photos.

2) With a runner moving from second on a shot down the left field line, the PU will drift up for a look at third or move up for a play, since the 3B umpire is out on the line call. You are mistaken about who covers what, where and when. I have read your posts and know you to be pretty aware of mechanics. Watch Quick Pitch in the morning and you will see plenty of HP calls made from 1B extended now. There is no perfect angle.

Drift up for a look at third? Look for what? You can see the touch at third from where you're supposed to be at the point of the plate. The PU stays home with R2 in 3 or 4-man mechanics. On a base hit, step back to the point of the plate, observe the touch at third if it is yours, and then watch anyone touch home plate.

Consider that most of the umpires working your playoffs don't work 3 or 4 man ball during the year. There is a tendancy to revert to what you know and drift. He may have been caught in an undesirable spot but he had a perfect view of what mattered.

Drift? You shouldn't be "drifting" even in 2-man. Either you rotate and go to third for a play there or you don't.

3) Umpiring is about getting the calls right. The best examples of our trade accept that mantra. Joyce, McClelland and Don Denkinger (to name a few) are all on the record in favor about instituting instant replay in MLB. They value getting the call right over evrything else.

4) I recall an NCAA Super Regional involving a game ending balk. At the time, many umpires were upset about the timing of that call. Others reasoned that it was correct and tough calls in big games are part of the job description.

This was a tough call to make. In Illinois, we had a Super Sectional game a decade ago or so that had a player hit a home run only to miss home plate. He was mobbed and walked into the dugout when the coach appealed and the PU agreed. It was a moment that few of us want but my friend nailed the call. He did what was right.

I'm not arguing that he didn't get the call right. He very well may have. I just agree with others who said his mechanics/positioning and the way he handled the ensuing situation were not good. I would eject a coach for demonstrating at the plate like he did. The BUs should have ran the other participants off and let the PU talk to the HC. Tell him what happened and go from there.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Your points taken in order, because I don't feel like going through and HTMLing.

1) In CT we go to 4 man crews at some point during the state playoffs. If you piece it together, it must have been 4 man. There is a shot of first base umpire walking in from the line and the third base umpire going out after his fair/foul decision. If they were both on the wings in 3man with a man on base (I believe R1 only but it may have been R2 only) we have bigger problems.

2) You are suggesting move up the 3rd base line for a potential play at third. Of course, if its responsibility. But then go, and let U1 take the plate. You either go or you don't. And if it was a 2man rotation, he should STILL be coming back to the point of the plate once there is no PLAY at third. He never did that.

And if PU goes to 3rd for a potential play, that makes it first base umpire at home to make a ruling on that appeal. Obviously that is not what happened.

His movement outside the dirt circle, 5 feet in foul territory, puts him in terrible position for a play at the plate. Your assertion that MLB guys take alot of plays from 1B line extended does not make it right for him to be where he was. He was WAY past that. Furthermore, according to sources and minds alot more knowledgable about umpiring than mine, 95% of plays at the plate should be taken from 3BX.

Furthermore, even if you DO take a play at the plate from 1BX, you start at the point of plate and then adjust based off if you read swipe tag or collision. At no time do you start from anywhere but point of plate. This is documented in PBUC manuals.

How is being 30 feet away from a touch at home that is moving away from you the perfect place to be? The perfect place to be is standing right behind home plate.

3) About umpiring being about getting the calls right, obviously that is what we are working towards. But great umpires do not think to themselves "i want to get this one right, i want to get this one right, yay! i got this one right". They study positioning and play development. They think HOW am I going to see it, how is this play going to develop, etc. etc. They then position themselves for that play. You can be in awful position and get alot of calls right, but it doesn't mean you're a good umpire. That is the message of every evaluator and umpires who have accomplished alot more than me in baseball. I'll take their word for it. What a few MLB guys opinions on instant replay has to do with that I have no idea.

4) So he made a gutsy call. If he had that, then absolutely he had it and has to call it when appealed. Nobody in this thread has said otherwise.

Great post.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

1) I looked at the photos from the game - four different sites. All show a 3 man crew. If there is a fourth, he isn't listed on a box score or shown in the photos.

Go to the video linked in the first post in this thread. At 0:49 and for a few seconds after that, you can see all four at the same time. It's right as the PU finishes his demonstration.

[MikeStrybel]

I find a few of the responses pretty funny. Like our crews here in Illinois, the Connecticut crew that worked this game usually works the two man system during the regular season. Was the PU out of textbook position? Yes. Was he in position to see the call that he had to make? Yes. There is no perfect position for baseball umpiring. Also, tossing the head coach for being animated in that situation is asinine. The assistant coach gets less rope though and may have earned a trip home. As for the term 'drift', it means to be out of position by virtue of habit. The PU drifted away from his proper position and it may have been as a result of not working enough 4 man games (who does?). If you are always in the proper position for every call and every play, good for you.

In response to a the query about getting the call right, if you don't know why I mentioned what get the call right means to MLB umpires, that's a shame. The very best umpires in the world know that umpiring is all about getting the call right, not about looking good doing it. They would rather institute instant replay in order to ensure this than pretend that their positioning is good enough.

Bob understood my post just fine. In response to Rich, I provided an anecdote about backing players off the plate. I know Rich to be a good umpire and was merely relating how our best intentions can injure the game. I asked Dave if he could cite a rule that allowed umpires to prevent players from taking the field during a dead ball. I know there is none. So does Bob.

RichMSN, I like the response...I still hold up a hand on big HRs and know better. I like to stand just in front of the plate, to watch the touch and then give the catcher the ball before I dust off the dish. Being there makes my every movement and advice visible.

DaveReed, I saw the fourth umpire. Thank you for pointing that out. I have searched for the box scores and see no umpires listed. The first base umpire was actually doing his job by rodeo clowning people away.

zm283, sorry but we disagree. I provided a specific example of where it can bite you in the a-- and the coach was right. If you tell players to stay back, it may be for your good but it is also preventing an infraction from occuring. You just gave one team an advantage. I related the story (in another thread - just so you can follow along) of how, long ago, I would subtly point at a base when a runner touched it, especially home. I had seen some college partners do it and picked up the (bad) habit. A coach realized what I was doing and caught me when I saw a guy miss one. He immediately appealed and then had the balls to tell me that I told him that the runner missed by my actions. Never again.

I'm sorry for doing what happens in almost every thread here. I added a dimension to the original play and it caused some confusion. It wasn't a big deal. I asked for clarification on something that was written. I could have written the typical, "Try again." or "Be gone fan boy." but I wanted to see if Dave or Rich would admit that no rule allows us to keep players off the field during a dead ball celebration. My attempt to remind the board that interjecting in that situation was more wrong than being out of proper position on the missed touch at home. Well, not really...he got the call right.

[Rich]

There's something alluded to that hasn't gotten enough play here. The missed plate belonged to U1, not the plate guy. The PU should've gone straight to third as soon as U3 went outcand U1 should've rotated down.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

There's something alluded to that hasn't gotten enough play here. The missed plate belonged to U1, not the plate guy. The PU should've gone straight to third as soon as U3 went outcand U1 should've rotated down.

Heh. Good catch!

[JJ]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

There's something alluded to that hasn't gotten enough play here. The missed plate belonged to U1, not the plate guy. The PU should've gone straight to third as soon as U3 went outcand U1 should've rotated down.

Hmmm...where were the runners before the ball was hit? The PU doesn't rotate to third on a base hit in EVERY situation....if there was a runner on second he stays home...

JJ