Home plate appeal costs HS Conn team Championship.

[jicecone]

Home plate appeal costs celebrating team a state title - Prep Rally - High SchoolBlog - Yahoo! Sports

Do you have what it takes to make the call?

I have been in this situation and had to hear from fellow officials about taknig the game away from the kids. I used to work with this official when I lived in CT and definitely know he was there because of his ability.

What say you?

[pastordoug]

If he missed home then he missed home and it doesn't matter who, what, where, when or how..... It's an out on appeal. It's not the Umps job to teach baserunning only to call what he/she has seen.

I was watching one of the CWS games and I think it was Thomas who was giving commentary and was shocked when I heard him say on a really close play at first (which the correct call was made, safe pulled foot, even in super slowmo) "It was really close and the tie goes to the runner." Thats the same kind of guy who says you took a game away from someone. Just my opinion.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Home plate appeal costs celebrating team a state title - Prep Rally - High SchoolBlog - Yahoo! Sports

Do you have what it takes to make the call?

I have been in this situation and had to hear from fellow officials about taknig the game away from the kids. I used to work with this official when I lived in CT and definitely know he was there because of his ability.

What say you?

And if you lie and say you didn't see it or that he touched, aren't you taking the game away for the other kids?

If the defense sees it and appeals, we should have the integrity to recognize good defense.

Rita

[David B]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Home plate appeal costs celebrating team a state title - Prep Rally - High SchoolBlog - Yahoo! Sports

Do you have what it takes to make the call?

I have been in this situation and had to hear from fellow officials about taknig the game away from the kids. I used to work with this official when I lived in CT and definitely know he was there because of his ability.

What say you?

That's what makes a good umpire. Call the game like you see it. Luckily for the winning team their F2 was paying attention because most of the time players today don't even watch.

I listened to the video and the coach even said the umpire was a good umpire, so that goes a long way with coaches.

Thanks
David

[JRutledge]

I do not like the demonstration from the umpire about how he touched the plate. Just make the call. But of course if he did not step on the plate, he did not step on the plate. That will just make him a legend to make a tough call in a tough situation. Good for him.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not like the demonstration from the umpire about how he touched the plate. Just make the call. But of course if he did not step on the plate, he did not step on the plate. That will just make him a legend to make a tough call in a tough situation. Good for him.

Peace

I agree with this. I'm not letting the coach demonstrate and would likely eject a coach for the same kind of pointing to the ground, etc.

"He missed the plate. He stepped right over it." Good enough. I made a similar call about 8 years ago and I ended up having to eject the player and the manager soon thereafter. I'd make the call again in a heartbeat. How hard is it to touch the plate on a dead ball?

[TussAgee11]

Standing where he shouldn't be at least 30 feet away from home plate. Should have been point of plate 15 feet back, maybe rotating 3B side to see him touch as the celebration comes out of the 1B dugout. Not where he was... awful umpiring bottom line. If he missed it, he missed it, but don't tell me he SAW him MISS from where he was. And even worse job dealing with the situation.

Listen, nobody's perfect and we all miss calls and mishandle situations. But I know this guy was not the most qualified to work this game, period. Its nothing against him as an umpire, and everything against the state board who let this crap go on over here on a year in, year out basis. It's an embarrassment to our profession.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

But I know this guy was not the most qualified to work this game, period. Its nothing against him as an umpire, and everything against the state board who let this crap go on over here on a year in, year out basis. It's an embarrassment to our profession.

Is been five years since I worked in that area and with the official that worked that game. I have no idea what shananigans have taken place since but, I do know the official at the plate was more than quailified to be there.

"But I know this guy was not the most qualified to work this game, period." I have heard this a thousand times and it usually means, why didn't they choose me.

[Dave Reed]

Well....
I don't typically find this sort of thing interesting, because the story is usually an emotional appeal to "fariness" or some such.

But now having finally watched the video, I'm wondering-- does the mechanics and positioning of PU permit him to make an accurate determination whether the runner touched the plate? Would you use this positioning on an extra inning winning run?

I count 4 umpires, so he didn't have too may other responsibilities.


ETA: Sorry TussAgee, I'm a slow poster.

[MikeStrybel]

Where are all the 'expected call' guys now?

The same guys that proclaim they will never call a pitch a strike if the catcher drops it are nowhere to be found.

The same guys who say they will never call a curve ball that cuts the bottom of the zone but ends up in the dirt are silent.

The same guys who preach that they call the runner out if the ball beats him to the slide by three feet (without regard for an actual tag) are AWOL.

Hmmmmm.

The demonstration/explanation was not pretty, but we only see the exchange. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for appeasing coaches who usually would be borderline insane on a call like that, during a game as big as it was.

"Coach, I watched him the whole way in. I dusted the dish just before the at bat and I can clearly see his foot print past it."
"Where?"
"Right here, skipper."
"Oh, crap."

Tough call, good call. I would have like to see the BU rodeo clown the others away from the dish though.

Finally, standing 3B extended would not have allowed him to see the touch in that situation.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Home plate appeal costs celebrating team a state title - Prep Rally - High SchoolBlog - Yahoo! Sports

Do you have what it takes to make the call?

I have been in this situation and had to hear from fellow officials about taknig the game away from the kids....

My question isnt about the PU, but your "fellow officials" who disagreed with your sich.
Either they were your partners, or fans in the stands that game, or weren't even there. In any case, "taking the game away from the kids" is coachspeak, what official even says that?

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Thanks Bob. Yes, I knew that there wasn't a rule about this in HS ball. My attempt to evolve the dialogue and banish a myth is for naught. In the OP, the PU had the best look at the runner from where he stood. He has to watch the touch at third, be in position for a possible rundown and fall back for a play at the dish. Third base extended wouldn't work for him too well. He may have been able to prevent the mob by being there, but anticipating that over watching his duties is not likely.

This is 4 man. He should be point of plate period end of story. He is over there floating around in the middle of nowhere for no reason. If you honestly think he was in position, I'm speechless. You watch touches of 3rd and home from point of plate, you don't start snooping around 30 feet up the line. That is true in 2man, 3man, 4man, 6man, Little League, High School, NCAA, MLB.

Umpiring is not simply getting plays right. Its about being in the right spot to see those plays. Was it the right call? It may have been the greatest, ballsiest, correct call for all I know. But it was horrible umpiring. At our state's biggest classification final.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

This is 4 man. He should be point of plate period end of story. He is over there floating around in the middle of nowhere for no reason. If you honestly think he was in position, I'm speechless. You watch touches of 3rd and home from point of plate, you don't start snooping around 30 feet up the line. That is true in 2man, 3man, 4man, 6man, Little League, High School, NCAA, MLB.

Umpiring is not simply getting plays right. Its about being in the right spot to see those plays. Was it the right call? It may have been the greatest, ballsiest, correct call for all I know. But it was horrible umpiring. At our state's biggest classification final.

1) I looked at the photos from the game - four different sites. All show a 3 man crew. If there is a fourth, he isn't listed on a box score or shown in the photos.

2) With a runner moving from second on a shot down the left field line, the PU will drift up for a look at third or move up for a play, since the 3B umpire is out on the line call. You are mistaken about who covers what, where and when. I have read your posts and know you to be pretty aware of mechanics. Watch Quick Pitch in the morning and you will see plenty of HP calls made from 1B extended now. There is no perfect angle.

Consider that most of the umpires working your playoffs don't work 3 or 4 man ball during the year. There is a tendancy to revert to what you know and drift. He may have been caught in an undesirable spot but he had a perfect view of what mattered.

3) Umpiring is about getting the calls right. The best examples of our trade accept that mantra. Joyce, McClelland and Don Denkinger (to name a few) are all on the record in favor about instituting instant replay in MLB. They value getting the call right over evrything else.

4) I recall an NCAA Super Regional involving a game ending balk. At the time, many umpires were upset about the timing of that call. Others reasoned that it was correct and tough calls in big games are part of the job description.

This was a tough call to make. In Illinois, we had a Super Sectional game a decade ago or so that had a player hit a home run only to miss home plate. He was mobbed and walked into the dugout when the coach appealed and the PU agreed. It was a moment that few of us want but my friend nailed the call. He did what was right.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

1) I looked at the photos from the game - four different sites. All show a 3 man crew. If there is a fourth, he isn't listed on a box score or shown in the photos.

2) With a runner moving from second on a shot down the left field line, the PU will drift up for a look at third or move up for a play, since the 3B umpire is out on the line call. You are mistaken about who covers what, where and when. I have read your posts and know you to be pretty aware of mechanics. Watch Quick Pitch in the morning and you will see plenty of HP calls made from 1B extended now. There is no perfect angle.

Consider that most of the umpires working your playoffs don't work 3 or 4 man ball during the year. There is a tendancy to revert to what you know and drift. He may have been caught in an undesirable spot but he had a perfect view of what mattered.

3) Umpiring is about getting the calls right. The best examples of our trade accept that mantra. Joyce, McClelland and Don Denkinger (to name a few) are all on the record in favor about instituting instant replay in MLB. They value getting the call right over evrything else.

4) I recall an NCAA Super Regional involving a game ending balk. At the time, many umpires were upset about the timing of that call. Others reasoned that it was correct and tough calls in big games are part of the job description.

This was a tough call to make. In Illinois, we had a Super Sectional game a decade ago or so that had a player hit a home run only to miss home plate. He was mobbed and walked into the dugout when the coach appealed and the PU agreed. It was a moment that few of us want but my friend nailed the call. He did what was right.

Your points taken in order, because I don't feel like going through and HTMLing.

1) In CT we go to 4 man crews at some point during the state playoffs. If you piece it together, it must have been 4 man. There is a shot of first base umpire walking in from the line and the third base umpire going out after his fair/foul decision. If they were both on the wings in 3man with a man on base (I believe R1 only but it may have been R2 only) we have bigger problems.

2) You are suggesting move up the 3rd base line for a potential play at third. Of course, if its responsibility. But then go, and let U1 take the plate. You either go or you don't. And if it was a 2man rotation, he should STILL be coming back to the point of the plate once there is no PLAY at third. He never did that.

And if PU goes to 3rd for a potential play, that makes it first base umpire at home to make a ruling on that appeal. Obviously that is not what happened.

His movement outside the dirt circle, 5 feet in foul territory, puts him in terrible position for a play at the plate. Your assertion that MLB guys take alot of plays from 1B line extended does not make it right for him to be where he was. He was WAY past that. Furthermore, according to sources and minds alot more knowledgable about umpiring than mine, 95% of plays at the plate should be taken from 3BX.

Furthermore, even if you DO take a play at the plate from 1BX, you start at the point of plate and then adjust based off if you read swipe tag or collision. At no time do you start from anywhere but point of plate. This is documented in PBUC manuals.

How is being 30 feet away from a touch at home that is moving away from you the perfect place to be? The perfect place to be is standing right behind home plate.

3) About umpiring being about getting the calls right, obviously that is what we are working towards. But great umpires do not think to themselves "i want to get this one right, i want to get this one right, yay! i got this one right". They study positioning and play development. They think HOW am I going to see it, how is this play going to develop, etc. etc. They then position themselves for that play. You can be in awful position and get alot of calls right, but it doesn't mean you're a good umpire. That is the message of every evaluator and umpires who have accomplished alot more than me in baseball. I'll take their word for it. What a few MLB guys opinions on instant replay has to do with that I have no idea.

4) So he made a gutsy call. If he had that, then absolutely he had it and has to call it when appealed. Nobody in this thread has said otherwise.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

As expected, you cannot accept the fact that you blundered. I asked a very specific question related to the OP, but not involving it. It was asked of Dave. You felt the need to blunder rather than answer my question. Now you feel the need to insult. Sad.

Thankfully, Bob addressed what I already knew. HS umpires do not have a rule to support them from keeping players away from the plate during a celebration on a dead ball. Some understand it to be preventive while others know it to be interjecting and preventing a rules infraction. I try not to do it but it happens. It was meant as advice to others - let them mess up and penalize the infractor(s). The umpire in the OP did.

There are numerous game management techniques that don't have specific rules to back them up. Keeping players away from the plate is one of them. You aren't helping or coaching the runner to make sure he touches the plate, you are simply making sure you can see if he does or not.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I blundered? In a thread about a liner to left where the apparent winning run scored, you post a semi-related but different situation that happened to you - and posit no question in that post. NO ONE replies to it.

You then quote one person, who was discussing the OP, and ask if there's really any rule about keeping players off the field during a dead ball. (The normal way of asking DAVE a question is PM'ing Dave. If you need everyone to see that you've asked Dave a question, simply put "Dave, " at the beginning of your question. Quoting him, in forum speak, means you are replying to him. He was not in any way referring to your irrelevant post from above.

Yet somehow I blundered by reminding you the ball in our scenario is live.

Incidentally - the answer to your question - whether there is a rule or not regarding keeping people off the field during a dead ball ... is COMPLETELY irrelevant to this situation, and most definitely not "a very specific question related to the OP, but not involving it".

It's remarkable to me that you're unable to understand how threaded conversations work, and repeatedly end up in arguments with people that are completely caused by you're inability to keep things straight ... and somehow this is everyone else's fault.

These were my exact thoughts while reading this thread. This is not a first for Mike Strybel.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

1) I looked at the photos from the game - four different sites. All show a 3 man crew. If there is a fourth, he isn't listed on a box score or shown in the photos.

2) With a runner moving from second on a shot down the left field line, the PU will drift up for a look at third or move up for a play, since the 3B umpire is out on the line call. You are mistaken about who covers what, where and when. I have read your posts and know you to be pretty aware of mechanics. Watch Quick Pitch in the morning and you will see plenty of HP calls made from 1B extended now. There is no perfect angle.

Drift up for a look at third? Look for what? You can see the touch at third from where you're supposed to be at the point of the plate. The PU stays home with R2 in 3 or 4-man mechanics. On a base hit, step back to the point of the plate, observe the touch at third if it is yours, and then watch anyone touch home plate.

Consider that most of the umpires working your playoffs don't work 3 or 4 man ball during the year. There is a tendancy to revert to what you know and drift. He may have been caught in an undesirable spot but he had a perfect view of what mattered.

Drift? You shouldn't be "drifting" even in 2-man. Either you rotate and go to third for a play there or you don't.

3) Umpiring is about getting the calls right. The best examples of our trade accept that mantra. Joyce, McClelland and Don Denkinger (to name a few) are all on the record in favor about instituting instant replay in MLB. They value getting the call right over evrything else.

4) I recall an NCAA Super Regional involving a game ending balk. At the time, many umpires were upset about the timing of that call. Others reasoned that it was correct and tough calls in big games are part of the job description.

This was a tough call to make. In Illinois, we had a Super Sectional game a decade ago or so that had a player hit a home run only to miss home plate. He was mobbed and walked into the dugout when the coach appealed and the PU agreed. It was a moment that few of us want but my friend nailed the call. He did what was right.

I'm not arguing that he didn't get the call right. He very well may have. I just agree with others who said his mechanics/positioning and the way he handled the ensuing situation were not good. I would eject a coach for demonstrating at the plate like he did. The BUs should have ran the other participants off and let the PU talk to the HC. Tell him what happened and go from there.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Your points taken in order, because I don't feel like going through and HTMLing.

1) In CT we go to 4 man crews at some point during the state playoffs. If you piece it together, it must have been 4 man. There is a shot of first base umpire walking in from the line and the third base umpire going out after his fair/foul decision. If they were both on the wings in 3man with a man on base (I believe R1 only but it may have been R2 only) we have bigger problems.

2) You are suggesting move up the 3rd base line for a potential play at third. Of course, if its responsibility. But then go, and let U1 take the plate. You either go or you don't. And if it was a 2man rotation, he should STILL be coming back to the point of the plate once there is no PLAY at third. He never did that.

And if PU goes to 3rd for a potential play, that makes it first base umpire at home to make a ruling on that appeal. Obviously that is not what happened.

His movement outside the dirt circle, 5 feet in foul territory, puts him in terrible position for a play at the plate. Your assertion that MLB guys take alot of plays from 1B line extended does not make it right for him to be where he was. He was WAY past that. Furthermore, according to sources and minds alot more knowledgable about umpiring than mine, 95% of plays at the plate should be taken from 3BX.

Furthermore, even if you DO take a play at the plate from 1BX, you start at the point of plate and then adjust based off if you read swipe tag or collision. At no time do you start from anywhere but point of plate. This is documented in PBUC manuals.

How is being 30 feet away from a touch at home that is moving away from you the perfect place to be? The perfect place to be is standing right behind home plate.

3) About umpiring being about getting the calls right, obviously that is what we are working towards. But great umpires do not think to themselves "i want to get this one right, i want to get this one right, yay! i got this one right". They study positioning and play development. They think HOW am I going to see it, how is this play going to develop, etc. etc. They then position themselves for that play. You can be in awful position and get alot of calls right, but it doesn't mean you're a good umpire. That is the message of every evaluator and umpires who have accomplished alot more than me in baseball. I'll take their word for it. What a few MLB guys opinions on instant replay has to do with that I have no idea.

4) So he made a gutsy call. If he had that, then absolutely he had it and has to call it when appealed. Nobody in this thread has said otherwise.

Great post.