Home plate appeal costs HS Conn team Championship.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

If you still insist that preventing a team from doing something illegal is appropriate in baseball that doesn't involve a tee, then you need the retraining. I never mentoned Rich or any other umpire by name, it seems you are doing a Conrad Dobler.

I guess I need to be restrained too because that is my officiating philosophy period. Every sport I was told to tell players when they are close to causing an infraction or say things to them even when they have not committed an infraction so that we do not have to spend all day calling things that are borderline. Now that does not mean we should not call something if it happens. It just means I would not like to call something so minor or not obvious all the time. I think that is being a good official. And just because we say something to a player really does not mean we are preventing them from causing an infraction, we are making them aware of something and if we make a call they can realize they have been warned. For example I am not going to allow a batter to set up clearly out of the box because it might give the other team an advantage if they contact the ball or the ball contacts them.

Peace

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess I need to be restrained too because that is my officiating philosophy period. Every sport I was told to tell players when they are close to causing an infraction or say things to them even when they have not committed an infraction so that we do not have to spend all day calling things that are borderline. Now that does not mean we should not call something if it happens. It just means I would not like to call something so minor or not obvious all the time. I think that is being a good official. And just because we say something to a player really does not mean we are preventing them from causing an infraction, we are making them aware of something and if we make a call they can realize they have been warned. For example I am not going to allow a batter to set up clearly out of the box because it might give the other team an advantage if they contact the ball or the ball contacts them.

Peace

If that is the case, your instructors did you no service. Warning a player before he commits an infraction is giving that team an advantage. Show me a mechanics manual of merit that tells umpires to help a player avoid commiting a rule infraction. In the play we are discussing, if the players step into the plate area during a live ball, man up and do your job.

I realize that high school sports allows umpires a bit more latitude to coach rather than making the hard call. When ratings drive you, it is critical to ignore 'minor' infractions. Don't choose which rules you will enforce. Watch the CWS this week and see how those guys work. They make the tough calls and deal with the ramifications. That is what got them there. That is why they keep getting asked back to work the big games.

Happy Father's Day to those of you who have that title. Enjoy your day.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

If that is the case, your instructors did you no service. Warning a player before he commits an infraction is giving that team an advantage. Show me a mechanics manual of merit that tells umpires to help a player avoid commiting a rule infraction. In the play we are discussing, if the players step into the plate area during a live ball, man up and do your job.

I guess that every basketball official that tells a thrower in a throw in what he can do he is doing the game a disservice. I guess it is wrong in that same sport to tell the players on a free throw to stay in their lane or stay to wait until a certain moment to enter the lane. Then I guess as a football official to ever tell a player they are marginal on an encroachment penalty or a holding penalty. Or I guess all the times I have defenders hit "receivers" while running routes in the secondary even when the action had not advantage I should also not say a word, because if that is not the case, then every single accomplished or veteran official/umpire that I have worked with does this for many things. I guess they are all totally wrong by doing such things, even though every camp I have attended or training there are tools like this discussed by everyone. Not every situation that we deal with as officials are in a book somewhere. I really hope that is your total justification for what we do in this case and others. I have never read a book how to deal with arguments, but somehow there are umpires that have techniques to deal with those situations.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I realize that high school sports allows umpires a bit more latitude to coach rather than making the hard call. When ratings drive you, it is critical to ignore 'minor' infractions. Don't choose which rules you will enforce. Watch the CWS this week and see how those guys work. They make the tough calls and deal with the ramifications. That is what got them there. That is why they keep getting asked back to work the big games.

Not sure what ratings have to do with this situation at all. I also have worked a lot of college over the years and I use similar tactics to prevent infractions of all kinds as an umpire at the high school level. The CWS is also not a good comparison for one the level of scrutiny is a lot different. If they make a call on a balk there is tape to back them up. A game in the middle of March they work probably is not even recorded other than by a parent and I doubt they are even taping from an angle that anyone would notice. Now since you brought it up one of the guys working the CWS is a Division 1 Basketball Supervisor of a Conference in the Midwest. I bet he did not get to that part by telling officials to not use preventative tactics from time to time and I doubt he got to that point as an umpire doing the same. And I know this because I know officials that work for him at his D1 league and other leagues and I have never heard them suggest to not do what is common in basketball to prevent problems. Maybe I am wrong, but I am going to take a wild guess that if I ever asked him about what you just said he might employ some of those things we are talking about here. Now, I am not saying to do this every single time, just suggesting that there are times and methods to employ such tactics and to tell a player when they might create an infraction of the rules. Because when make the call we are at a point of no return and now we have to call other minor infractions. I would rather talk a kid out of a minor infraction then call one and have to call one all day. And if that is your position, you must not also explain to a player or coach what they did on a balk, because that is also not in the book either.

Peace

[Tim C]

Sometimes Mike you're just wrong in how officiating is done in the modern age.

I have been taught for many, many moons that preventive officiating is not only accepted but it clearly defines the top officials from the "almost" top officials.

Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

Telling players to stay back on the grass as a runner scores is not coaching it is asking that the players respect you in doing your job.

T

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Sometimes Mike you're just wrong in how officiating is done in the modern age.

I have been taught for many, many moons that preventive officiating is not only accepted but it clearly defines the top officials from the "almost" top officials.

Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

Telling players to stay back on the grass as a runner scores is not coaching it is asking that the players respect you in doing your job.

T

I am just a little ole' HS official, but I am happy to send a catcher out to talk to a pitcher (I'll call a balk when the pitcher balks, but when he's close but not balking, it hurts nobody to have the catcher remind him that he's close) or talk to post players to let them know I'm there. What I'm saying is that I agree completely.

[bob jenkins]

It's all part of the "a good umpire is one you don't notice" philosophy. It doesn't mean you don't make the tough calls, it means you deal with the little things before they turn into big things.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Sometimes Mike you're just wrong in how officiating is done in the modern age.

I have been taught for many, many moons that preventive officiating is not only accepted but it clearly defines the top officials from the "almost" top officials.

Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

Telling players to stay back on the grass as a runner scores is not coaching it is asking that the players respect you in doing your job.

T

I've heard very similar words from Rich Fetchiet, Dave Yeast and Nick Zibelli and I teach the same.

[pastordoug]

I'm curious now.....
Mike, have you EVER moved a bat out of the way on a play at home?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Show me a mechanics manual of merit that tells umpires to help a player avoid commiting a rule infraction.

Hey, WR (or CB) back up you're in the neutral zone. "Let's go batter" a couple of seconds before they would get an automatic strike. Holding a stop sign up to a coach who wants time but comes out while ball still live. LOTS of examples, in every sport.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

I'm curious now.....
Mike, have you EVER moved a bat out of the way on a play at home?

Oh dear God I hope not.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Oh dear God I hope not.

LOTS of umpirs do that at all levels.

[MikeStrybel]

The CWS umpires are miked for the series. Anyone want to bet that they are coaching like top officials in the modern era? Talk with Jim Evans, Joe Brinkman, Tim Tschida or Gerry Davis about whether they offer 'helpful advice' in the guise of going unnoticed. I have.

For what it's worth, don't bring up other sports when discussing what is acceptable in baseball umpiring.

A quick review of this forum shows a tendency for dismissing opinions that cannot be corroborated by a manual of merit. Yet, when discussing the idea of helping a team/player gain an advantage through umpire interjection I find no such support. Hmmmm.

There is a school of thought that allows umpires to guide the game, making it easier to handle impending problems. I understand the need for that and have partaken. I work hard not to do it any more. This reminds me of the 'get the call right' mentality that so many fought a decade ago. They ridiculed conferences, changing plays and instant replay. The contention was that the game allows umpires to do certain things and sometimes they are wrong. That mentality has changed and the very best accept that they are there to make the tough calls and eat crow occassionally for the greater good of the game. Calls are scrutinized more, as is umpire behavior. I provided a very real situation where a coach called me on warning players from breaking the rules. I told it to support the idea that we should not coach, even if it makes us disappear out there. Yes, I believe a lot of it has to do with ratings and approval from the powers that be. It is far easier to tell a catcher that his pitcher is balking rather than simply call it and deal with upset players, coaches and fans. If that is how you teach or umpire, okay, good for you. I try not to do that. Sometimes I forget or get lazy, but by and large I try to just call what I see. If that means a coach will get upset, so be it. I would rather have a coach pissed because I balked his pitcher than to have him confront me because I just cut the other team an illegal break by coaching.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

I'm curious now.....
Mike, have you EVER moved a bat out of the way on a play at home?

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Hey, WR (or CB) back up you're in the neutral zone. "Let's go batter" a couple of seconds before they would get an automatic strike. Holding a stop sign up to a coach who wants time but comes out while ball still live. LOTS of examples, in every sport.

In basketball, reminding the players to get out of the lane. It's no in the manual, but I can guarantee in most areas if you start making this call (3 seconds) a lot (once a game), the instruction will be to use some preventative officiating.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

The CWS umpires are miked for the series. Anyone want to bet that they are coaching like top officials in the modern era? Talk with Jim Evans, Joe Brinkman, Tim Tschida or Gerry Davis about whether they offer 'helpful advice' in the guise of going unnoticed. I have.

For what it's worth, don't bring up other sports when discussing what is acceptable in baseball umpiring.

I totally disagree about not bringing in other sports, because most top officials I know work other or have at one time. And this is not just a baseball only philosophy where preventive officiating or umpiring is used. And finally this complete comparison to pro umpires is totally different. We are not the pros. They have a lot of things they would never have to deal with and things they do we never have to deal with. I honestly in most cases do not care what pro guys do because if I handled myself they do at the college and HS level, I might not be working very long.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

A quick review of this forum shows a tendency for dismissing opinions that cannot be corroborated by a manual of merit. Yet, when discussing the idea of helping a team/player gain an advantage through umpire interjection I find no such support. Hmmmm.

You keep talking about the Manual, but I have never read in any manual how to look in your uniform or to have it looked pressed and or what mask to use which we often talk about here. Also in Illinois we do not use any Manual (at least not from the NF) so I have no idea what that says or care what it says.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

There is a school of thought that allows umpires to guide the game, making it easier to handle impending problems. I understand the need for that and have partaken. I work hard not to do it any more. This reminds me of the 'get the call right' mentality that so many fought a decade ago. They ridiculed conferences, changing plays and instant replay. The contention was that the game allows umpires to do certain things and sometimes they are wrong. That mentality has changed and the very best accept that they are there to make the tough calls and eat crow occassionally for the greater good of the game. Calls are scrutinized more, as is umpire behavior. I provided a very real situation where a coach called me on warning players from breaking the rules. I told it to support the idea that we should not coach, even if it makes us disappear out there. Yes, I believe a lot of it has to do with ratings and approval from the powers that be. It is far easier to tell a catcher that his pitcher is balking rather than simply call it and deal with upset players, coaches and fans.

Wrong on the part in bold. You said you do not work HS anymore. I still do a great deal of HS (cut back on all of it but it fills a good part of my schedule overall) and I work a lot of college too. College coaches have a lot of say in who works their games than most HS coaches and if you tick off a college coach they tend to hold more of a grudge. Again, most of those umpires I know treat this area almost the same. So that is why I do not understand your point about ratings when ratings do not determine who works in the playoffs (at least in our state as people might think they do) and this has nothing to do with not making a tough call. It has to do with trying to prevent a very borderline infraction like a balk so that every similar action will not have to be called based on a very minor or debatable infraction. But if the infraction is obvious, of course no matter what you have said that needs to be called. And I can tell you I have made a lot of tough calls at all levels only and my ratings are still very high.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

If that is how you teach or umpire, okay, good for you. I try not to do that. Sometimes I forget or get lazy, but by and large I try to just call what I see. If that means a coach will get upset, so be it. I would rather have a coach pissed because I balked his pitcher than to have him confront me because I just cut the other team an illegal break by coaching.

I have no problem with you taking a different philosophy, but just understand it appears that many do not seem to agree or do what I suggested in this very specific case. I have never really heard anyone complain big time this from the coaching perspective and certainly do not do it for ratings. I call many balks a year and most of those calls go unchallenged in my experience. And if you think that is to appease some fans or a coach that was probably the funniest thing you said. Coaches and fans come and go; the top officials stay mostly the same.

Peace

[Bob James]

Well, I certainly talk to players to prevent infractions. So sue me. Had a Babe Ruth game Saturday where the visiting catcher, obviously not very experienced, set up way forward in the box. I said, "you sure you want to be that close?" The lead-off batter, who happened to be the home team's catcher, almost hit him with a warm-up swing, and stepped back looking quizzically at him. When F2 didn't move, the batter shrugged and I put the ball in play. The batter whacked the hell out of his glove on the first pitch. "I tried to warn you," I said, as he shook his bruised hand. He learned the lesson quickly!

Pitchers in danger of balking will get a soft caution from me, too.

BTW, you should listen to the highest level international rugby referees (they are miked, too) - their games are a constant running dialogue of warnings, instructions, "coaching," if you will. "Stay onside!" "Keep back!" "Make it [the ball] available!" "Play it!" "Release him [to a tackler holding a ball carrier]" and so forth. It's all intended to keep play moving and prevent action-halting infractions.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot I'm not to mention other sports!