Home plate appeal costs HS Conn team Championship.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

There's something alluded to that hasn't gotten enough play here. The missed plate belonged to U1, not the plate guy. The PU should've gone straight to third as soon as U3 went outcand U1 should've rotated down.

Yes Rich that is possible but its hard to really tell where the runners were and outs, was runner going, etc. Winning run, I could see leaving the plate guy at home and just sliding or pushing on a clean double. I'm not going to kill the crew for that, but its certainly worth a discussion about end of game rotations / slides in both 3 and 4 man. Nice catch.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JJ

Hmmm...where were the runners before the ball was hit? The PU doesn't rotate to third on a base hit in EVERY situation....if there was a runner on second he stays home...

JJ

R1 only. It said so in the article and the timing of the video makes this pretty obvious.

There's no way I alter the rotations in this situation, either. It's just as likely there's a big call at third and I'd rather stay on the same page we were on the entire game.

(The only exception I could see is if it was a 3-2 count with 2 outs we might treat that runner if he was an R2 and slide. The timing just doesn't support that, though.)

[David B]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

but I wanted to see if Dave or Rich would admit that no rule allows us to keep players off the field during a dead ball celebration. My attempt to remind the board that interjecting in that situation was more wrong than being out of proper position on the missed touch at home. Well, not really...he got the call right.

As others have stated, this was not a dead ball situation. There is no rule that keeps players off the field, (in a dead ball situation), but if I am PU, I have lots of authority to make sure the plate area stays clean.

Also, at least in our state, we have mandated to watch the players around the plate because there have been so many instances where this has been interpreted as taunting. I know several times a season, I have to warn someone to cool it during their HR celebrations.

Thanks
David

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

As for the term 'drift', it means to be out of position by virtue of habit. The PU drifted away from his proper position and it may have been as a result of not working enough 4 man games (who does?). If you are always in the proper position for every call and every play, good for you.

You used the term "drift" in a way that sounded like it was a proper mechanic. You said something to the effect of "The PU will drift up the line for a look at third".

zm283, sorry but we disagree. I provided a specific example of where it can bite you in the a-- and the coach was right. If you tell players to stay back, it may be for your good but it is also preventing an infraction from occuring. You just gave one team an advantage. I related the story (in another thread - just so you can follow along) of how, long ago, I would subtly point at a base when a runner touched it, especially home. I had seen some college partners do it and picked up the (bad) habit. A coach realized what I was doing and caught me when I saw a guy miss one. He immediately appealed and then had the balls to tell me that I told him that the runner missed by my actions. Never again.

No, your example has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Even during a dead ball, there is no advantage gained by keeping players away from the plate so you can see if it is touched or not. I ask again: How exactly does keeping teammates away from home plate prevent an infraction from happening? All it does is ensure I can see the touch, nothing else. Furthermore, pointing at a base is a different animal and completely off the subject. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If a coach wants to get upset about me keeping players away from the plate, he had better get over it pretty quickly.

If there was such an advantage gained from keeping players away from the plate, the NCAA wouldn't put it in their rule book. FED needs to follow suit.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

R1 only. It said so in the article and the timing of the video makes this pretty obvious.

There's no way I alter the rotations in this situation, either. It's just as likely there's a big call at third and I'd rather stay on the same page we were on the entire game.

(The only exception I could see is if it was a 3-2 count with 2 outs we might treat that runner if he was an R2 and slide. The timing just doesn't support that, though.)

Have you ever seen / heard of crews, perhaps some with some familiarity with each other, altering some rotations late in games and with winning runs involved?

Just curious,

[David B]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Yes Rich that is possible but its hard to really tell where the runners were and outs, was runner going, etc. Winning run, I could see leaving the plate guy at home and just sliding or pushing on a clean double. I'm not going to kill the crew for that, but its certainly worth a discussion about end of game rotations / slides in both 3 and 4 man. Nice catch.

Rotation is rotation. You're not going to change that simply because its the end of the game. There is no way communicate that with your fellow officials. But a very good point by Rich. I edited to add since i just saw your other post asking that question.
In all of our playoff games etc, we want the guys going out to cover the fly ball/ catch etc., on every possible situation.

But, I've never heard of changing anything simply because its the end of the game. If anything, I'm wanting F3 to make sure he goes out on a possible play etc.,


Thanks
David

[Rich]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Have you ever seen / heard of crews, perhaps some with some familiarity with each other, altering some rotations late in games and with winning runs involved?

Just curious,

It's a poor choice, IMO. Why keep the plate umpire at home? It's almost like saying that U1 isn't as capable of making a call at the plate when he's going to get to the point of the plate easily and make the call the exact same way the plate guy did.

I'm willing to bet that the reason that the PU was where he was is because he felt he had to get to third and then changed his mind. I mean, I don't see U2 sliding to third in the video.

I work a lot of 4-man games over the course of a season with some guys that I regularly work with -- I know we're not altering this rotation.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by zm1283

You used the term "drift" in a way that sounded like it was a proper mechanic. You said something to the effect of "The PU will drift up the line for a look at third".

No, I would have used the term 'rotate' as I normally do when discussing proper mechanics.

No, your example has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Even during a dead ball, there is no advantage gained by keeping players away from the plate so you can see if it is touched or not. I ask again: How exactly does keeping teammates away from home plate prevent an infraction from happening? All it does is ensure I can see the touch, nothing else. Furthermore, pointing at a base is a different animal and completely off the subject. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If a coach wants to get upset about me keeping players away from the plate, he had better get over it pretty quickly.

If there was such an advantage gained from keeping players away from the plate, the NCAA wouldn't put it in their rule book. FED needs to follow suit.

LOL! Keeping players from breaking the rules is not your job. During a live ball you have recourse through rules that prohibit them from leaving the dugout (in both NCAA and Fed!). During a DB, you have no authority to keep them away. None. It may make your job easier, but that's all it does.

In reference to the OP, by putting up your hand and stopping them from advancing you have prevented them from interfering. If you don't consider that an advantage then I suggest a retraining course is in order.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

No, I would have used the term 'rotate' as I normally do when discussing proper mechanics.



LOL! Keeping players from breaking the rules is not your job. During a live ball you have recourse through rules that prohibit them from leaving the dugout (in both NCAA and Fed!). During a DB, you have no authority to keep them away. None. It may make your job easier, but that's all it does.

In reference to the OP, by putting up your hand and stopping them from advancing you have prevented them from interfering. If you don't consider that an advantage then I suggest a retraining course is in order.

I really don't see it as providing an unfair advantage, Mike.

I see nothing wrong with me saying, "Let him touch" and keeping a path clear as best I can. I believe there's room for some preventive officiating here. Of course, I do the exact same on every home run when teammates come out of the dugout.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I really don't see it as providing an unfair advantage, Mike.

I see nothing wrong with me saying, "Let him touch" and keeping a path clear as best I can. I believe there's room for some preventive officiating here. Of course, I do the exact same on every home run when teammates come out of the dugout.

Gee, Rich. Mike has told you that you need to be retrained.

Off you go, now.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Gee, Rich. Mike has told you that you need to be retrained.

Off you go, now.

I'm confident in my difference in opinion.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

...

LOL! Keeping players from breaking the rules is not your job. During a live ball you have recourse through rules that prohibit them from leaving the dugout (in both NCAA and Fed!). During a DB, you have no authority to keep them away. None. It may make your job easier, but that's all it does.

In reference to the OP, by putting up your hand and stopping them from advancing you have prevented them from interfering. If you don't consider that an advantage then I suggest a retraining course is in order.

Mike,

While you are correct that FED rules do not prohibit players from leaving the dugout during a dead ball - say, after a home run - NCAA has recently changed this rule, so that now:

d. After a home run, no offensive team member, other than the base
coaches, shall touch the batter-runner before home plate has been
touched. Team personnel, except for preceding base runners and the
on-deck batter, shall not leave the warning track area in front of the
dugout (a recommended minimum area of 15 feet) to congratulate the
batter-runner and other base runners.

Regardless, ALL three codes contain language to the effect that:

..Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager or club officer or employee to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administering of these rules, ...

When I tell the players to "stay back" - I usually go with something like, "Gentlemen, toes on the grass until he reaches. Thank you." - I am simply instructing the players not to interfere with my ability to see whether or not the player touches so I may properly administer the rules.

I have all the rules support I need to so order them and I am NOT "coaching" them.

JM

[celebur]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Bob understood my post just fine. In response to Rich, I provided an anecdote about backing players off the plate. I know Rich to be a good umpire and was merely relating how our best intentions can injure the game. I asked Dave if he could cite a rule that allowed umpires to prevent players from taking the field during a dead ball. I know there is none. So does Bob.

Yes, Bob understood your post. . .AFTER you clarified it with a follow-up post. As for me, I took it exactly like some others did. Actually, with the way you quoted Dave and the context of his post, it came across to me as you challenging his statement (in his context, not yours). That warranted a reply exactly of the sort you got, but you just can't see it, and like a dog on a bone, you won't. It would have served you better to have simply clarified what you meant when others clearly misinterpreted you; instead, you go on and on and on about how right you were and are.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mike,

While you are correct that FED rules do not prohibit players from leaving the dugout during a dead ball - say, after a home run - NCAA has recently changed this rule, so that now:



Regardless, ALL three codes contain language to the effect that:



When I tell the players to "stay back" - I usually go with something like, "Gentlemen, toes on the grass until he reaches. Thank you." - I am simply instructing the players not to interfere with my ability to see whether or not the player touches so I may properly administer the rules.

I have all the rules support I need to so order them and I am NOT "coaching" them.

JM

No, John, you are most certainly coaching them. It is no different than telling another player to not do something that would be an infraction. You are telling players to stay back - that is involving yourself in the game. While it may be to allow you a clear look at the plate, it is also crossing a line.

I know that many here subscribe to the theory of preventive umpring. Consider the typical, "Catcher, go tell your pitcher to stop or I'll balk him." You just prevented an infraction from occuring and it made your life easier. You also just gave one team an advantage. Call what you see, not what is convenient.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Gee, Rich. Mike has told you that you need to be retrained.

Off you go, now.

If you still insist that preventing a team from doing something illegal is appropriate in baseball that doesn't involve a tee, then you need the retraining. I never mentoned Rich or any other umpire by name, it seems you are doing a Conrad Dobler.

I just read nine pages of discussion regarding a batter-runner interference call that would be largely ignored by most of the respondees. Hell, most had never even considered it to be interference. If you believe you cannot learn new things or improve then you will never work games on that stage. Those umpires made a tough call, just like the ones involved in this thread's play. They didn't take the easy way out. Call what you see and stop coaching.