[zm1283]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

As expected, you cannot accept the fact that you blundered. I asked a very specific question related to the OP, but not involving it. It was asked of Dave. You felt the need to blunder rather than answer my question. Now you feel the need to insult. Sad.

Thankfully, Bob addressed what I already knew. HS umpires do not have a rule to support them from keeping players away from the plate during a celebration on a dead ball. Some understand it to be preventive while others know it to be interjecting and preventing a rules infraction. I try not to do it but it happens. It was meant as advice to others - let them mess up and penalize the infractor(s). The umpire in the OP did.

There are numerous game management techniques that don't have specific rules to back them up. Keeping players away from the plate is one of them. You aren't helping or coaching the runner to make sure he touches the plate, you are simply making sure you can see if he does or not.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I blundered? In a thread about a liner to left where the apparent winning run scored, you post a semi-related but different situation that happened to you - and posit no question in that post. NO ONE replies to it.

You then quote one person, who was discussing the OP, and ask if there's really any rule about keeping players off the field during a dead ball. (The normal way of asking DAVE a question is PM'ing Dave. If you need everyone to see that you've asked Dave a question, simply put "Dave, " at the beginning of your question. Quoting him, in forum speak, means you are replying to him. He was not in any way referring to your irrelevant post from above.

Yet somehow I blundered by reminding you the ball in our scenario is live.

Incidentally - the answer to your question - whether there is a rule or not regarding keeping people off the field during a dead ball ... is COMPLETELY irrelevant to this situation, and most definitely not "a very specific question related to the OP, but not involving it".

It's remarkable to me that you're unable to understand how threaded conversations work, and repeatedly end up in arguments with people that are completely caused by you're inability to keep things straight ... and somehow this is everyone else's fault.

These were my exact thoughts while reading this thread. This is not a first for Mike Strybel.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

1) I looked at the photos from the game - four different sites. All show a 3 man crew. If there is a fourth, he isn't listed on a box score or shown in the photos.

2) With a runner moving from second on a shot down the left field line, the PU will drift up for a look at third or move up for a play, since the 3B umpire is out on the line call. You are mistaken about who covers what, where and when. I have read your posts and know you to be pretty aware of mechanics. Watch Quick Pitch in the morning and you will see plenty of HP calls made from 1B extended now. There is no perfect angle.

Drift up for a look at third? Look for what? You can see the touch at third from where you're supposed to be at the point of the plate. The PU stays home with R2 in 3 or 4-man mechanics. On a base hit, step back to the point of the plate, observe the touch at third if it is yours, and then watch anyone touch home plate.

Consider that most of the umpires working your playoffs don't work 3 or 4 man ball during the year. There is a tendancy to revert to what you know and drift. He may have been caught in an undesirable spot but he had a perfect view of what mattered.

Drift? You shouldn't be "drifting" even in 2-man. Either you rotate and go to third for a play there or you don't.

3) Umpiring is about getting the calls right. The best examples of our trade accept that mantra. Joyce, McClelland and Don Denkinger (to name a few) are all on the record in favor about instituting instant replay in MLB. They value getting the call right over evrything else.

4) I recall an NCAA Super Regional involving a game ending balk. At the time, many umpires were upset about the timing of that call. Others reasoned that it was correct and tough calls in big games are part of the job description.

This was a tough call to make. In Illinois, we had a Super Sectional game a decade ago or so that had a player hit a home run only to miss home plate. He was mobbed and walked into the dugout when the coach appealed and the PU agreed. It was a moment that few of us want but my friend nailed the call. He did what was right.

I'm not arguing that he didn't get the call right. He very well may have. I just agree with others who said his mechanics/positioning and the way he handled the ensuing situation were not good. I would eject a coach for demonstrating at the plate like he did. The BUs should have ran the other participants off and let the PU talk to the HC. Tell him what happened and go from there.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Your points taken in order, because I don't feel like going through and HTMLing.

1) In CT we go to 4 man crews at some point during the state playoffs. If you piece it together, it must have been 4 man. There is a shot of first base umpire walking in from the line and the third base umpire going out after his fair/foul decision. If they were both on the wings in 3man with a man on base (I believe R1 only but it may have been R2 only) we have bigger problems.

2) You are suggesting move up the 3rd base line for a potential play at third. Of course, if its responsibility. But then go, and let U1 take the plate. You either go or you don't. And if it was a 2man rotation, he should STILL be coming back to the point of the plate once there is no PLAY at third. He never did that.

And if PU goes to 3rd for a potential play, that makes it first base umpire at home to make a ruling on that appeal. Obviously that is not what happened.

His movement outside the dirt circle, 5 feet in foul territory, puts him in terrible position for a play at the plate. Your assertion that MLB guys take alot of plays from 1B line extended does not make it right for him to be where he was. He was WAY past that. Furthermore, according to sources and minds alot more knowledgable about umpiring than mine, 95% of plays at the plate should be taken from 3BX.

Furthermore, even if you DO take a play at the plate from 1BX, you start at the point of plate and then adjust based off if you read swipe tag or collision. At no time do you start from anywhere but point of plate. This is documented in PBUC manuals.

How is being 30 feet away from a touch at home that is moving away from you the perfect place to be? The perfect place to be is standing right behind home plate.

3) About umpiring being about getting the calls right, obviously that is what we are working towards. But great umpires do not think to themselves "i want to get this one right, i want to get this one right, yay! i got this one right". They study positioning and play development. They think HOW am I going to see it, how is this play going to develop, etc. etc. They then position themselves for that play. You can be in awful position and get alot of calls right, but it doesn't mean you're a good umpire. That is the message of every evaluator and umpires who have accomplished alot more than me in baseball. I'll take their word for it. What a few MLB guys opinions on instant replay has to do with that I have no idea.

4) So he made a gutsy call. If he had that, then absolutely he had it and has to call it when appealed. Nobody in this thread has said otherwise.

Great post.