Interesting Question

[jkumpire]

This was recently brought to my attention, I am interested in some opinions:

R2, outs and count does not matter.

R2 tries to steal 3B. R2 overslides 3B. BU calls R2 safe. Manager has discussion with BU, who then comes to check with PU in a conference. PU says he did not get a good look at the call. You as PU say:

A. PU says "I go with your call."

B. PU says either: "IMO he's out", or "IMO he's safe". BU then accepts PU's judgment and makes that his call.

C. PU tells BU to "Make a call and stick with it, if you are wanting to change you call do it."

Questions:

1. How do you deal with BU in this case?

2. How do you deal with either manager when they come to you as the PU for an explanation?

3. What influences you to make this call on the level of ball you most commonly work?

Thank you for your consideration and opinions.

[UmpJM]

jkumpire,

Not sure where you're going with this, but I'll try to answer your questions:

1. If my partner comes to me for help on his call, I'm going to tell him what I saw.

2. If a manager subsequently comes to me, I'm going to direct him to my partner.

3. Not sure what you're asking here.

JM

[jkumpire]

I just wondering if umpires who work different levels would see this differently (i.e. HS as opposed to NCAA, or Younger players, or pure OBR).

Hope this helps!

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

I just wondering if umpires who work different levels would see this differently (i.e. HS as opposed to NCAA, or Younger players, or pure OBR).

Absolutely since these various groups of umpires work together never, occasionally, sometimes, or frequently. Communication is all about compatibility and comfortableness.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

jkumpire,

Not sure where you're going with this, but I'll try to answer your questions:

1. If my partner comes to me for help on his call, I'm going to tell him what I saw.

2. If a manager subsequently comes to me, I'm going to direct him to my partner.

3. Not sure what you're asking here.

JM

I'm with you... maybe if I read more, I'll figure out the point of the question....

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

I'm with you... maybe if I read more, I'll figure out the point of the question....

The point of question #3 is simply this: On different levels of Baseball there are different ways of handling this situation. NCAA has a list of times when partners should meet, for one example.

I wanted to find out how the many posters and lurkers on this board would handle this situation with their BU partner when confronted with the same situation.

I am still looking for a few more opinions on this situation, so any help you can offer or opinions you can give I would appreciate reading.

[MikeStrybel]

I was taught that when conferring, the calling umpire asks, "What did you see on that play?" It is specific and allows a partner to provide information that affirms or changes the call. For HS ball, I wait until asked. The new NCAA guidelines will help me this season. Before I left for Asia, I would have used a very similar mechanic to Fed in NCAA games. Wait and reply.

[Garth Vader]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

The point of question #3 is simply this: On different levels of Baseball there are different ways of handling this situation. NCAA has a list of times when partners should meet, for one example.

I wanted to find out how the many posters and lurkers on this board would handle this situation with their BU partner when confronted with the same situation.

I am still looking for a few more opinions on this situation, so any help you can offer or opinions you can give I would appreciate reading.

there is another thread on this running now, i'll save you the review. the mechaninc, the ump's pride, the whatever NEVER exceeds Getting The Call Right.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

the mechaninc, the ump's pride, the whatever NEVER exceeds Getting The Call Right.

Gordon/Garth (whichever), which pro school did you attend that taught this?

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

The point of question #3 is simply this: On different levels of Baseball there are different ways of handling this situation. NCAA has a list of times when partners should meet, for one example.

I wanted to find out how the many posters and lurkers on this board would handle this situation with their BU partner when confronted with the same situation.

I am still looking for a few more opinions on this situation, so any help you can offer or opinions you can give I would appreciate reading.

Unfortunately until you get to work at higher levels consistently with pretty much the same partners, this is going to change, sometimes game to game. I worked two season's with one partner 75% of the time and we read each other like a book. There have been other times you just wonder if it would have been better to do the game yourself. For the most part though, pre-game this and just give your partner info for him to make a decision. It's his call but, make sure to back him up on the field.

I would say that at the Varsity level and below, I have found over the years, that approx. 50% of the time or more, your going to work with someone who really doesn't study mechanics, knows some of the rules and feels as though they have to obligh the coaches, or are just inexperienced and lack confidence. Regardless though, you still have to get through the game.

Good luck.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Unfortunately until you get to work at higher levels consistently with pretty much the same partners, this is going to change, sometimes game to game. I worked two season's with one partner 75% of the time and we read each other like a book. There have been other times you just wonder if it would have been better to do the game yourself. For the most part though, pre-game this and just give your partner info for him to make a decision. It's his call but, make sure to back him up on the field.

I would say that at the Varsity level and below, I have found over the years, that approx. 50% of the time or more, your going to work with someone who really doesn't study mechanics, knows some of the rules and feels as though they have to obligh the coaches, or are just inexperienced and lack confidence. Regardless though, you still have to get through the game.

Good luck.

For high school games, I work with the same partner 80-90% of the time. For college games, I have many different partners. If it were up to me, I would get rid of the partner system. It fosters non-uniform mechanics. This can cause big problems when you work with a new partner which, in high school baseball, is likely to be in the playoffs. Not a good time for partners to be on different pages.

[MikeStrybel]

This is what a good pregame is about. Come to me and I'll tell you what I saw...or in this case, didn't see. You indicate that I was screened so that leaves the original call standing. No, I won't encourage him to change it and then hang me with the job of selling it. If you don't see an out happen, the runner gets the benefit of the doubt. Calling what you can't see leads to long days. Confer. When I work with guys for a while, we break conferences by all shaking our heads in agreement and return to position. Whoever is the original calling umpire will make the signal for the play and may explain that after conferring, his look at it was best. The coach can respond as he sees fit. We get play resumed as quickly as possible.

Give 'em what you've got. Be honest and sell it. The PU is not always the crew chief in higher levels of ball. If the coach wants an explanation and I am the CC I will try to oblige. If I am not, I will walk away and let the CC handle it.

Good luck.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

This was recently brought to my attention, I am interested in some opinions:

R2, outs and count does not matter.

R2 tries to steal 3B. R2 overslides 3B. BU calls R2 safe. Manager has discussion with BU, who then comes to check with PU in a conference. PU says he did not get a good look at the call. You as PU say:

A. PU says (snipped remainder)...

..."I can't help" and that is that.

[yawetag]

In a high school game, I've only had a conference once, and it was my fault that we had it. As BU, I called a play at 1B safe too quickly, missing the swipe tag that happened. I saw the tag as I began my safe call -- whoops. The DC jumped out of the dugout. I immediately called my partner in, told him that I saw the swipe tag. He agreed there was a tag; I changed the call.

In the youth league, though, I deal with a lot of newer, inexperienced umpires. Several times I've had meetings for calls they made. In these, I always ask them what they saw. If their call was incorrect due to misapplication of the rules or something they personally saw ("He tagged him, then dropped the ball"), I'll explain to them the rule and see if they realize the mistake. If they don't, or the mistake was an error in judgment (they didn't see the ball dropped), I'll let them know what I saw.

In all cases, we agree on a call before breaking and the original umpire makes the new call.

[David B]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

This was recently brought to my attention, I am interested in some opinions:


Questions:

1. How do you deal with BU in this case?

2. How do you deal with either manager when they come to you as the PU for an explanation?

3. What influences you to make this call on the level of ball you most commonly work?

Thank you for your consideration and opinions.

I'm going to be very honest with him. But IMO, it's still the BU decision as to the call. If he's asking me if i saw something he didn't, I will tell him, but let him make the decision.

As far as the coaches, once a decision is made, we are on the same page, no matter what.

It doesn't change with me no matter what level of ball.

Thanks
David