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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 08:50pm
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Interesting Question

This was recently brought to my attention, I am interested in some opinions:

R2, outs and count does not matter.

R2 tries to steal 3B. R2 overslides 3B. BU calls R2 safe. Manager has discussion with BU, who then comes to check with PU in a conference. PU says he did not get a good look at the call. You as PU say:

A. PU says "I go with your call."

B. PU says either: "IMO he's out", or "IMO he's safe". BU then accepts PU's judgment and makes that his call.

C. PU tells BU to "Make a call and stick with it, if you are wanting to change you call do it."

Questions:

1. How do you deal with BU in this case?

2. How do you deal with either manager when they come to you as the PU for an explanation?

3. What influences you to make this call on the level of ball you most commonly work?

Thank you for your consideration and opinions.

Last edited by jkumpire; Wed Mar 09, 2011 at 08:52pm. Reason: Added another question
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Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 09:08pm
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Cool

jkumpire,

Not sure where you're going with this, but I'll try to answer your questions:

1. If my partner comes to me for help on his call, I'm going to tell him what I saw.

2. If a manager subsequently comes to me, I'm going to direct him to my partner.

3. Not sure what you're asking here.

JM
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Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 09:10pm
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Jm

I just wondering if umpires who work different levels would see this differently (i.e. HS as opposed to NCAA, or Younger players, or pure OBR).

Hope this helps!
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Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 09:14pm
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This is what a good pregame is about. Come to me and I'll tell you what I saw...or in this case, didn't see. You indicate that I was screened so that leaves the original call standing. No, I won't encourage him to change it and then hang me with the job of selling it. If you don't see an out happen, the runner gets the benefit of the doubt. Calling what you can't see leads to long days. Confer. When I work with guys for a while, we break conferences by all shaking our heads in agreement and return to position. Whoever is the original calling umpire will make the signal for the play and may explain that after conferring, his look at it was best. The coach can respond as he sees fit. We get play resumed as quickly as possible.

Give 'em what you've got. Be honest and sell it. The PU is not always the crew chief in higher levels of ball. If the coach wants an explanation and I am the CC I will try to oblige. If I am not, I will walk away and let the CC handle it.

Good luck.

Last edited by MikeStrybel; Wed Mar 09, 2011 at 09:16pm.
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Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 09:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkumpire View Post
I just wondering if umpires who work different levels would see this differently (i.e. HS as opposed to NCAA, or Younger players, or pure OBR).
Absolutely since these various groups of umpires work together never, occasionally, sometimes, or frequently. Communication is all about compatibility and comfortableness.
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Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 09:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkumpire View Post
This was recently brought to my attention, I am interested in some opinions:

R2, outs and count does not matter.

R2 tries to steal 3B. R2 overslides 3B. BU calls R2 safe. Manager has discussion with BU, who then comes to check with PU in a conference. PU says he did not get a good look at the call. You as PU say:

A. PU says (snipped remainder)...
..."I can't help" and that is that.
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Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 10:41pm
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In a high school game, I've only had a conference once, and it was my fault that we had it. As BU, I called a play at 1B safe too quickly, missing the swipe tag that happened. I saw the tag as I began my safe call -- whoops. The DC jumped out of the dugout. I immediately called my partner in, told him that I saw the swipe tag. He agreed there was a tag; I changed the call.

In the youth league, though, I deal with a lot of newer, inexperienced umpires. Several times I've had meetings for calls they made. In these, I always ask them what they saw. If their call was incorrect due to misapplication of the rules or something they personally saw ("He tagged him, then dropped the ball"), I'll explain to them the rule and see if they realize the mistake. If they don't, or the mistake was an error in judgment (they didn't see the ball dropped), I'll let them know what I saw.

In all cases, we agree on a call before breaking and the original umpire makes the new call.
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Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 11:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkumpire View Post
This was recently brought to my attention, I am interested in some opinions:


Questions:

1. How do you deal with BU in this case?

2. How do you deal with either manager when they come to you as the PU for an explanation?

3. What influences you to make this call on the level of ball you most commonly work?

Thank you for your consideration and opinions.
I'm going to be very honest with him. But IMO, it's still the BU decision as to the call. If he's asking me if i saw something he didn't, I will tell him, but let him make the decision.

As far as the coaches, once a decision is made, we are on the same page, no matter what.

It doesn't change with me no matter what level of ball.

Thanks
David
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Old Thu Mar 10, 2011, 02:20am
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I always ask my partner what he needs from me and then I provide it for him. If he wants what I have I give it to him, if he needs to change a call I bite the bullet for him, if he is coming to me to appease the coach I help him with that. We may talk in the post game, but on the field I provide as much support as possible. I may need it one day!
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Old Thu Mar 10, 2011, 07:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
I always ask my partner what he needs from me and then I provide it for him. If he wants what I have I give it to him, if he needs to change a call I bite the bullet for him, if he is coming to me to appease the coach I help him with that. We may talk in the post game, but on the field I provide as much support as possible. I may need it one day!
My apologies for being blunt, but given this play you read your partner and call the runner out in order to help his doubt? Given your past posts here I doubt that you are advocating such an irresponsible mechanic. We provide what we saw and use our post game to discuss ways to improve his calls.

This reminds me of umpires who give proximity outs on forces rather than making the actual call. A long time ago, this may have been accepted practice but has since changed in an effort to get all of our calls correct. Video replay did away with a lot of that misplaced arrogance. Call what you see. If you don't see an out, he is safe.

Have a great season. We still have snow in the forecast.
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Old Thu Mar 10, 2011, 08:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStrybel View Post
My apologies for being blunt, but given this play you read your partner and call the runner out in order to help his doubt? Given your past posts here I doubt that you are advocating such an irresponsible mechanic. We provide what we saw and use our post game to discuss ways to improve his calls.

This reminds me of umpires who give proximity outs on forces rather than making the actual call. A long time ago, this may have been accepted practice but has since changed in an effort to get all of our calls correct. Video replay did away with a lot of that misplaced arrogance. Call what you see. If you don't see an out, he is safe.

Have a great season. We still have snow in the forecast.
I don't think that's what he was saying but, I could be wrong. What I read is he's going to be honest with his partner.

BU - I've got him safe, did he make it back to bag on other side?

PU - tells what he saw, gives BU information he needs.

Could be, "he got back fine from what i saw" or could be "no he was six inches off the bag" or it could be, "man I couldn't tell".

Then BU makes a final decision etc.,

At least that's what I read into his comments.

Oh edited to add, and if the coach wants to complain to me, I've going to tell him to hire three umpires and then we won't be having this discussion ...

Thanks
David

Last edited by David B; Thu Mar 10, 2011 at 08:03am. Reason: add comment
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Old Thu Mar 10, 2011, 08:40am
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Good morning David, I was responding to Durham.

Quote:
I always ask my partner what he needs from me and then I provide it for him. If he wants what I have I give it to him, if he needs to change a call I bite the bullet for him, if he is coming to me to appease the coach I help him with that. We may talk in the post game, but on the field I provide as much support as possible. I may need it one day!
Maybe I am reading this wrong - the internet limits clarity. I read, "...if he needs to change a call I bite the bullet for him,..." as a partner allowing another umpire to thrust the burden of making the call on myself. I also see it as changing a call and pretending that you got advice from your partner when that is not true. If the umpire made a hasty call, has doubt but I didn't see the play, I will not change the call for him and won't allow him to do it. That is not what conferring is supposed to be about. Ask me what I have and if I cannot offer a better look, the original call stands.

If Durham means something different, my apologies. I have written things that others misconstrue and have had to clarify later. His other posts seems to indicate that he knows what he is doing out there, so I suspect this is just one of those things.

Enjoy your season!
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Old Thu Mar 10, 2011, 08:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStrybel View Post
Good morning David, I was responding to Durham.



Maybe I am reading this wrong - the internet limits clarity. I read, "...if he needs to change a call I bite the bullet for him,..." as a partner allowing another umpire to thrust the burden of making the call on myself. I also see it as changing a call and pretending that you got advice from your partner when that is not true. If the umpire made a hasty call, has doubt but I didn't see the play, I will not change the call for him and won't allow him to do it. That is not what conferring is supposed to be about. Ask me what I have and if I cannot offer a better look, the original call stands.

If Durham means something different, my apologies. I have written things that others misconstrue and have had to clarify later. His other posts seems to indicate that he knows what he is doing out there, so I suspect this is just one of those things.

Enjoy your season!
I took it to mean that if my partner changes his call after getting information from me, I will confirm to the coach what I saw (if necessary). It's not really biting the bullet for him, it's just backing him up.
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Old Thu Mar 10, 2011, 09:27am
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Agreed. Considering that the OP had the PU screened or ignorant of the play, changing the play could only be as a result of the calling umpire pretending that he was given new information. The PU will then take the grief. I have trouble with that mechanic.
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Old Thu Mar 10, 2011, 03:15pm
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I don't think I ever said that I change the call, it was his and I let him do his thing, but I have worked with guys that have had a crew get together and then say, "Man, I kicked it!" or "Man, I think I missed that!" and follow that up with I am gonna change it. I tell em, "Do what you gotta do bro!"

Then we get ready for the fireworks.

If a partner needs to use me so that he can pretend to get new info, then I support him is all I was saying. After the game we will talk about ways to get into better postion, or to improve timing, like better use of eyes, but I will not critize him for doing what he did. That is what I am there for. I am the only guy, or one of 2 or 3 on the field with him that he has. And on the field I have his back.

Sorry if any of you don't support that, but you won't regret having me on the field when the turds hit the fan.

Again, notice all I did was support my partner, not change his call or tell him what to do.

I however will insist that if he is going to change his call, that we go over to the coach that the call will go against and explain it before we give any signal. He will do the talking and i will just be there or the other partner will just be there. Don't give a bull a red flag and then let him have room to run at you!
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