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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2011, 01:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simply The Best View Post
If you have an association with a set of quality leaders, they can match up partners according to strengths and weaknesses, temperament, physical capabilities, etc. All derived from the testing, reviews and supervision.
Sure, if every official was available any time you needed them and were willing to drive as far as needed. In actuality, it's impossible to make these pairings, especially with 100+ officials and thousands of games, so organizations are forced to pair partners by availability. This doesn't mean organizations can't pair officials with different abilities, but there's no way you can match them perfectly.

The only exceptions are when officials are being evaluated for promotion to higher-level games. Pair them with more experienced and stronger officials to evaluate them.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2011, 07:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simply The Best View Post
The Big Dogs in the association want to work with each other after pancakes 'n beer. This dooms proper matchings; they have no interest in being astute leaders, only their self-interests. Which games with which other Big Dogs and the paychecks that come their way. And IHOP pancakes and cheap beers of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simply The Best View Post
Why is it that so many officials on this forum have the unending desire to be statesmen or comediennes and impending need to test coach's patience? This was uncalled for, imo.
Do those shoes fit?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2011, 11:52am
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Originally Posted by Simply The Best


If you have an association with a set of quality leaders, they can match up partners according to strengths and weaknesses, temperament, physical capabilities, etc. All derived from the testing, reviews and supervision.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yawetag View Post
Sure, if every official was available any time you needed them and were willing to drive as far as needed. In actuality, it's impossible to make these pairings, especially with 100+ officials and thousands of games, so organizations are forced to pair partners by availability. This doesn't mean organizations can't pair officials with different abilities, but there's no way you can match them perfectly.
Wasn't shooting for perfection. Availability is one of the criteria that you snipped from my post (i.e. "etc)
Quote:
The only exceptions are when officials are being evaluated for promotion to higher-level games. Pair them with more experienced and stronger officials to evaluate them.
Fair enough.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2011, 12:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
If BU comes to me with a Q I would ask him to explain exactly what he saw and why he called him safe. I would then ask him if has any doubt about the call. If noon, then I suggest the call stand, regardless of what I saw, and I'm not likely to tell him. If he says yes, he has doubt and wants to know what I saw, I will tell him. If I saw a safe then case closed. If I saw an out then I suggest to him that he can change it if he wants to but I would suggest he not do that, let it stand, because I could be wrong and his doubt misgiven,after all, he has much better position on the play. Best to let everyone see we discussed and that is all the defensive coach can hope for.
I think I understand your intent, but don't think this is the way to go.
As BU, if I come to you for info (besides coach appeasement), I dont want be asked multiple Q's on why I called that, what my "doubt" level on the call is, or what you think I should do. All I want to know is "What do you have". Tell me, and I'll handle it from there.
Your post would make more sense if the BU was a newbie, though...
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2011, 01:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
I however will insist that if he is going to change his call, that we go over to the coach that the call will go against and explain it before we give any signal. He will do the talking and i will just be there or the other partner will just be there. Don't give a bull a red flag and then let him have room to run at you!
It may seem like I'm picking on you, but I really just want a clearer response.
Are you saying that, as PU, you can actually "insist" on BU's actions and that "we signal" ? Sounds like you're over-reaching there.

But I am curious on the "both going to explain the changed call" idea and wonder what all of you think of this. The coach knows that the PU saw something different and will address comments to the PU (so the BU "does the talking and I will just be there" idea wont work).
Any time I've given info, the BU then makes his call while I'm nearby or walking back to my position, and if a coach asks me (due to a call change), I say "I told my partner what I saw, and its his call, lets play ball"...
What say all of you?
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2011, 02:28pm
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I don't feel picked on at all. I will agree that to some that my approach may be over reaching, but I have yet to run into that problem on the field. We pregame it and work together a lot.

In 2001 I was working U1 at a game in Lakewood, NJ. My partner missed a HR ball due to a bad angle and a funky ground rule. After we got together, I informed him of where the ball hit and explained how it came back onto the field. As soon as I told him, he turned around and changed the call. The Lakewood manager shot out of the dugout like a cannon ball. He bumped my partner really hard and it was one of the most intense situations I have ever seen on the field.

We were being evaluated that night. After the game, Denny Cregg said, "Well boys! Do you think that there is anything you could have done different to prevent that?"

He later shared that if, you walk towards that manager/HC he knows what is coming and he has time to think about it. He still isn't happy about it, but by closing the distance between you and him and giving him time to chew on it, it helps defuse the situation a little.

This mechanic has helped me ever since.

By both umpires going over the manager/coach hears it from the calling umpire and the other umpire can quickly support the change and get the game going again. This allows you to avoid the, I am going to go talk to him and the yelling across the field that can take place if the non-calling umpire doesn't go with.

This isn't the only way, and you are welcome to never use it, but it has worked very well for me.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2011, 03:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkumpire View Post
This was recently brought to my attention, I am interested in some opinions:

R2, outs and count does not matter.

R2 tries to steal 3B. R2 overslides 3B. BU calls R2 safe. Manager has discussion with BU, who then comes to check with PU in a conference. PU says he did not get a good look at the call. You as PU say:

A. PU says "I go with your call."

B. PU says either: "IMO he's out", or "IMO he's safe". BU then accepts PU's judgment and makes that his call.

C. PU tells BU to "Make a call and stick with it, if you are wanting to change you call do it."

Questions:

1. How do you deal with BU in this case?

2. How do you deal with either manager when they come to you as the PU for an explanation?

3. What influences you to make this call on the level of ball you most commonly work?

Thank you for your consideration and opinions.
I see a bunch of responses below, but I'm responding before reading them. All three, A, B, and C seem inappropriately abrupt. I, as PU, have already said all I have to offer. Partner, I have nothing to add, or Partner, I didn't see anything that would change this call. A) PU doesn't "go with BU's call" ... it's BU's call to make, PU is not "over" him. B) PU has no "opinion". BU should be asking a specific question here... did the runner overslide where I was blocked, etc. PU's opinion on safe/out should never be uttered. C) more correct but rudely stated for no apparent reason.

Regarding the questions at the bottom, 1) Why does BU need to be dealt with, I'm missing something. 2) Nothing - direct manager to the umpire who made the call. 3) Huh?
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2011, 04:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
I don't think I ever said that I change the call, it was his and I let him do his thing, but I have worked with guys that have had a crew get together and then say, "Man, I kicked it!" or "Man, I think I missed that!" and follow that up with I am gonna change it. I tell em, "Do what you gotta do bro!"

Then we get ready for the fireworks.

If a partner needs to use me so that he can pretend to get new info, then I support him is all I was saying. After the game we will talk about ways to get into better postion, or to improve timing, like better use of eyes, but I will not critize him for doing what he did. That is what I am there for. I am the only guy, or one of 2 or 3 on the field with him that he has. And on the field I have his back.
That is awful.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2011, 05:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
That is awful.
Don't hold back.

Care to share your full thoughts?
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2011, 08:25pm
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I was taught to NEVER approach a coach to inform him of your call before you make it. The reason for this is simple, it will either welcome intimate confrontation or appear like you are discussing something with him without having the other coach/manager present. Signal the call after you and your partner confer. Hopefully, you held your conference away from players and coaches. By signalling your call, you have stated your decision for all to see. If the coach charges out, handle it.

In the Lakewood play, without knowing his demeanor, I suggest that the coach would have been just as upset if you broke your huddle and then approached him to change the play. Being near him doesn't negate his response to a perceived slight. Maybe you could have convinced him to not be upset, but professional umpires are taught to respect distance and be assertive when getting a call right.

Make your call, let him charge out, listen to his questions and respond when appropriate. This is routine situation handling. Approaching a coach, often in front of his dugout only brings you closer to the lion's den. It works for me and has for almost thirty years.

Sunshine and 50's tomorrow. My season doesn't start soon enough. Enjoy yours.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2011, 09:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archangel View Post
I think I understand your intent, but don't think this is the way to go.
As BU, if I come to you for info (besides coach appeasement), I dont want be asked multiple Q's on why I called that, what my "doubt" level on the call is, or what you think I should do. All I want to know is "What do you have". Tell me, and I'll handle it from there.
Your post would make more sense if the BU was a newbie, though...
Exactly. I maybe assumed a newbie has asked the Q because an experienced ump would not, in fact most likely got it right already. If I am working with an experienceed ump and he asks I tell him what I got, and he will decide what to do with that info.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2011, 11:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStrybel View Post
I was taught to NEVER approach a coach to inform him of your call before you make it.


Sunshine and 50's tomorrow. My season doesn't start soon enough. Enjoy yours.
I was taught that too, but I am always learning and trying new things. This one works for me and is just food for thought. So many ways to approach situations. Find ones that work for you.

Season is going well. Had a blast at AT&T Park this past weekend. Got to work with and watch 5 of the best umpires in college baseball. Was very blessed to be apart of it. Get to work with two of them again this weekend. Life is very good at the moment. New baby girl and I get to umpire.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 16, 2011, 12:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
I however will insist that if he is going to change his call, that we go over to the coach that the call will go against and explain it before we give any signal. He will do the talking and i will just be there or the other partner will just be there. Don't give a bull a red flag and then let him have room to run at you!
I would insist that you have to be kidding me.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 16, 2011, 12:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
Exactly. I maybe assumed a newbie has asked the Q because an experienced ump would not, in fact most likely got it right already. If I am working with an experienceed ump and he asks I tell him what I got, and he will decide what to do with that info.
You've done your job. If he's ethical, and you have a call changer, he changes the call. If not, then he truly does have to make a decision.
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