Interesting Question

[David B]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

My apologies for being blunt, but given this play you read your partner and call the runner out in order to help his doubt? Given your past posts here I doubt that you are advocating such an irresponsible mechanic. We provide what we saw and use our post game to discuss ways to improve his calls.

This reminds me of umpires who give proximity outs on forces rather than making the actual call. A long time ago, this may have been accepted practice but has since changed in an effort to get all of our calls correct. Video replay did away with a lot of that misplaced arrogance. Call what you see. If you don't see an out, he is safe.

Have a great season. We still have snow in the forecast.

I don't think that's what he was saying but, I could be wrong. What I read is he's going to be honest with his partner.

BU - I've got him safe, did he make it back to bag on other side?

PU - tells what he saw, gives BU information he needs.

Could be, "he got back fine from what i saw" or could be "no he was six inches off the bag" or it could be, "man I couldn't tell".

Then BU makes a final decision etc.,

At least that's what I read into his comments.

Oh edited to add, and if the coach wants to complain to me, I've going to tell him to hire three umpires and then we won't be having this discussion ...

Thanks
David

[MikeStrybel]

Good morning David, I was responding to Durham.

I always ask my partner what he needs from me and then I provide it for him. If he wants what I have I give it to him, if he needs to change a call I bite the bullet for him, if he is coming to me to appease the coach I help him with that. We may talk in the post game, but on the field I provide as much support as possible. I may need it one day!

Maybe I am reading this wrong - the internet limits clarity. I read, "...if he needs to change a call I bite the bullet for him,..." as a partner allowing another umpire to thrust the burden of making the call on myself. I also see it as changing a call and pretending that you got advice from your partner when that is not true. If the umpire made a hasty call, has doubt but I didn't see the play, I will not change the call for him and won't allow him to do it. That is not what conferring is supposed to be about. Ask me what I have and if I cannot offer a better look, the original call stands.

If Durham means something different, my apologies. I have written things that others misconstrue and have had to clarify later. His other posts seems to indicate that he knows what he is doing out there, so I suspect this is just one of those things.

Enjoy your season!

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Good morning David, I was responding to Durham.



Maybe I am reading this wrong - the internet limits clarity. I read, "...if he needs to change a call I bite the bullet for him,..." as a partner allowing another umpire to thrust the burden of making the call on myself. I also see it as changing a call and pretending that you got advice from your partner when that is not true. If the umpire made a hasty call, has doubt but I didn't see the play, I will not change the call for him and won't allow him to do it. That is not what conferring is supposed to be about. Ask me what I have and if I cannot offer a better look, the original call stands.

If Durham means something different, my apologies. I have written things that others misconstrue and have had to clarify later. His other posts seems to indicate that he knows what he is doing out there, so I suspect this is just one of those things.

Enjoy your season!

I took it to mean that if my partner changes his call after getting information from me, I will confirm to the coach what I saw (if necessary). It's not really biting the bullet for him, it's just backing him up.

[MikeStrybel]

Agreed. Considering that the OP had the PU screened or ignorant of the play, changing the play could only be as a result of the calling umpire pretending that he was given new information. The PU will then take the grief. I have trouble with that mechanic.

[Durham]

I don't think I ever said that I change the call, it was his and I let him do his thing, but I have worked with guys that have had a crew get together and then say, "Man, I kicked it!" or "Man, I think I missed that!" and follow that up with I am gonna change it. I tell em, "Do what you gotta do bro!"

Then we get ready for the fireworks.

If a partner needs to use me so that he can pretend to get new info, then I support him is all I was saying. After the game we will talk about ways to get into better postion, or to improve timing, like better use of eyes, but I will not critize him for doing what he did. That is what I am there for. I am the only guy, or one of 2 or 3 on the field with him that he has. And on the field I have his back.

Sorry if any of you don't support that, but you won't regret having me on the field when the turds hit the fan.

Again, notice all I did was support my partner, not change his call or tell him what to do.

I however will insist that if he is going to change his call, that we go over to the coach that the call will go against and explain it before we give any signal. He will do the talking and i will just be there or the other partner will just be there. Don't give a bull a red flag and then let him have room to run at you!

[archangel]

Originally Posted by Durham

I however will insist that if he is going to change his call, that we go over to the coach that the call will go against and explain it before we give any signal. He will do the talking and i will just be there or the other partner will just be there. Don't give a bull a red flag and then let him have room to run at you!

It may seem like I'm picking on you, but I really just want a clearer response.
Are you saying that, as PU, you can actually "insist" on BU's actions and that "we signal" ? Sounds like you're over-reaching there.

But I am curious on the "both going to explain the changed call" idea and wonder what all of you think of this. The coach knows that the PU saw something different and will address comments to the PU (so the BU "does the talking and I will just be there" idea wont work).
Any time I've given info, the BU then makes his call while I'm nearby or walking back to my position, and if a coach asks me (due to a call change), I say "I told my partner what I saw, and its his call, lets play ball"...
What say all of you?

[Durham]

I don't feel picked on at all. I will agree that to some that my approach may be over reaching, but I have yet to run into that problem on the field. We pregame it and work together a lot.

In 2001 I was working U1 at a game in Lakewood, NJ. My partner missed a HR ball due to a bad angle and a funky ground rule. After we got together, I informed him of where the ball hit and explained how it came back onto the field. As soon as I told him, he turned around and changed the call. The Lakewood manager shot out of the dugout like a cannon ball. He bumped my partner really hard and it was one of the most intense situations I have ever seen on the field.

We were being evaluated that night. After the game, Denny Cregg said, "Well boys! Do you think that there is anything you could have done different to prevent that?"

He later shared that if, you walk towards that manager/HC he knows what is coming and he has time to think about it. He still isn't happy about it, but by closing the distance between you and him and giving him time to chew on it, it helps defuse the situation a little.

This mechanic has helped me ever since.

By both umpires going over the manager/coach hears it from the calling umpire and the other umpire can quickly support the change and get the game going again. This allows you to avoid the, I am going to go talk to him and the yelling across the field that can take place if the non-calling umpire doesn't go with.

This isn't the only way, and you are welcome to never use it, but it has worked very well for me.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Durham

I don't think I ever said that I change the call, it was his and I let him do his thing, but I have worked with guys that have had a crew get together and then say, "Man, I kicked it!" or "Man, I think I missed that!" and follow that up with I am gonna change it. I tell em, "Do what you gotta do bro!"

Then we get ready for the fireworks.

If a partner needs to use me so that he can pretend to get new info, then I support him is all I was saying. After the game we will talk about ways to get into better postion, or to improve timing, like better use of eyes, but I will not critize him for doing what he did. That is what I am there for. I am the only guy, or one of 2 or 3 on the field with him that he has. And on the field I have his back.

That is awful.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

That is awful.

Don't hold back.

Care to share your full thoughts?

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by Durham

I however will insist that if he is going to change his call, that we go over to the coach that the call will go against and explain it before we give any signal. He will do the talking and i will just be there or the other partner will just be there. Don't give a bull a red flag and then let him have room to run at you!

I would insist that you have to be kidding me.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by David B

Oh edited to add, and if the coach wants to complain to me, I've going to tell him to hire three umpires and then we won't be having this discussion ...Thanks
David

I hear this comeback all the time and all I find is it is a good way to insure an argument. IMO, the last thing you want to do is to have the coach hear his parents aren't paying enough money...or have the parents hear the same...or put yourself in a position where you get "three blind ones won't be any better".

The last time a partner of mine created his own hell with this statement, I hung him out. After he finally gained distance from the coach, he wondered why I didn't intervene.

"I figured when you asked for a fight you wanted one."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

I hear this comeback all the time and all I find is it is a good way to insure an argument. IMO, the last thing you want to do is to have the coach hear his parents aren't paying enough money...or have the parents hear the same...or put yourself in a position where you get "three blind ones won't be any better".

The last time a partner of mine created his own hell with this statement, I hung him out. After he finally gained distance from the coach, he wondered why I didn't intervene.

"I figured when you asked for a fight you wanted one."

I agree that, like so many quips to coaches in all sports, they are better thought than said on the field / court.

[DG]

If BU comes to me with a Q I would ask him to explain exactly what he saw and why he called him safe. I would then ask him if has any doubt about the call. If noon, then I suggest the call stand, regardless of what I saw, and I'm not likely to tell him. If he says yes, he has doubt and wants to know what I saw, I will tell him. If I saw a safe then case closed. If I saw an out then I suggest to him that he can change it if he wants to but I would suggest he not do that, let it stand, because I could be wrong and his doubt misgiven,after all, he has much better position on the play. Best to let everyone see we discussed and that is all the defensive coach can hope for.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by DG

If BU comes to me with a Q I would ask him to explain exactly what he saw and why he called him safe. I would then ask him if has any doubt about the call. If noon, then I suggest the call stand, regardless of what I saw, and I'm not likely to tell him. If he says yes, he has doubt and wants to know what I saw, I will tell him. If I saw a safe then case closed. If I saw an out then I suggest to him that he can change it if he wants to but I would suggest he not do that, let it stand, because I could be wrong and his doubt misgiven,after all, he has much better position on the play. Best to let everyone see we discussed and that is all the defensive coach can hope for.

I think I understand your intent, but don't think this is the way to go.
As BU, if I come to you for info (besides coach appeasement), I dont want be asked multiple Q's on why I called that, what my "doubt" level on the call is, or what you think I should do. All I want to know is "What do you have". Tell me, and I'll handle it from there.
Your post would make more sense if the BU was a newbie, though...

[DG]

Originally Posted by archangel

I think I understand your intent, but don't think this is the way to go.
As BU, if I come to you for info (besides coach appeasement), I dont want be asked multiple Q's on why I called that, what my "doubt" level on the call is, or what you think I should do. All I want to know is "What do you have". Tell me, and I'll handle it from there.
Your post would make more sense if the BU was a newbie, though...

Exactly. I maybe assumed a newbie has asked the Q because an experienced ump would not, in fact most likely got it right already. If I am working with an experienceed ump and he asks I tell him what I got, and he will decide what to do with that info.