Catch/Appeal

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Great explanation, Rich! I like the way you worded the difference between FED & OBR. If you don't mind, I would like to use this explanation in our next rules clinic for recruits.

No problem.

Hope you're serving cheese at the meeting ;-)

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

2 bases from his last legally occupied base. 1B is the last base legally occupied since he has a retouch obligation at 1B on a caught fly ball.

In both FED and OBR it's initially two bases from where you are positioned at the time of the throw. It's only after the re-touch (if made) that you adjust the award.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by zm1283

But what do you do when he tries to return to 1B to retouch when he's not allowed to?

Watch him do it.

Also, wouldn't he be awarded home if he's between 2B and 3B when the ball is released from F8? So do you tell him he can't retouch first, and award him home and let the defense figure it out from there?

Not in FED, no. Just award third and let the rest play itself out.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Watch him do it.



Not in FED, no. Just award third and let the rest play itself out.

So if he retouches, it's up to the defense to figure out that he can't retouch and then appeal?

Why do you only award third? FED rule/casebook reference?

[BretMan]

FED rule is 8-3-5.

[SAump]

Umpire communication question: Do you "coach" an appeal out of the defense?

For example, players near the base do know a rule has been violated and complain about the runner's action to the umpire, although team members remain unaware of the "procedural" requirement for a proper appeal to be made with the "live" ball in hand.

A) Do you tell the defense you will not acknowledge an improper appeal, thus tipping the hat to the defense to follow up and make a proper appeal with the ball in hand that you will correctly acknowledge.

OR

B) Do you remain quiet and not acknowledge the initial complaint, leaving the defense with the impression you're calling him safe when in fact you're making no call on the "valid" complaint made w/out the ball in hand.

[TussAgee11]

I'd say ignore if not spoken to directly, and if spoken to directly, find a way to answer vaguely.

"So?" "Okay..." seem like appropriate responses, ONLY WHEN SPOKEN TO DIRECTLY.

Once you get past that initial response, I'm sure coach will yell at his players to execute the appeal legally.

[DG]

Originally Posted by SAump

Umpire communication question: Do you "coach" an appeal out of the defense?

For example, players near the base do know a rule has been violated and complain about the runner's action to the umpire, although team members remain unaware of the "procedural" requirement for a proper appeal to be made with the "live" ball in hand.

A) Do you tell the defense you will not acknowledge an improper appeal, thus tipping the hat to the defense to follow up and make a proper appeal with the ball in hand that you will correctly acknowledge.

OR

B) Do you remain quiet and not acknowledge the initial complaint, leaving the defense with the impression you're calling him safe when in fact you're making no call on the "valid" complaint made w/out the ball in hand.

Totally unrelated to situation here since you are asking about a live ball appeal. However, if asked by players I will reserve comment and turn and look into the dugout at the head coach. If he is savvy he will either instruct players or call time to come out and discuss. If he asks the right questions during dead ball discussion he will get the right answers. If he does not I will not lead him to do so.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

Umpire communication question: Do you "coach" an appeal out of the defense?

For example, players near the base do know a rule has been violated and complain about the runner's action to the umpire, although team members remain unaware of the "procedural" requirement for a proper appeal to be made with the "live" ball in hand.

A) Do you tell the defense you will not acknowledge an improper appeal, thus tipping the hat to the defense to follow up and make a proper appeal with the ball in hand that you will correctly acknowledge.

My answer is generally some variation on "I can't rule on that until you make a proper appeal." I give that answer whether or not the baserunner erred.

Two exceptions:

Number 1) IF there are no runners still on base, I might just say that the runner touched the base (assuming he did so, of course). It avoids delaying the game for what will by definition be an unsuccessful appeal, and the offense can't gain from the defense throwing the ball away during an attempt at an appeal.

Number b) In FED ball, in a blow out game, or with no runners on base, I might just say, "Time -- coach, what are you trying to do?" and then rule on the appeal.

[tcarilli]

Since the initial attempt to retire the runner at first after the catch is an appeal and the fielder erred (ie threw the ball into dead ball territory) no further appeal is allowed on the runner at first base in the OP. I think this is the case in all three codes; if not, have at it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tcarilli

Since the initial attempt to retire the runner at first after the catch is an appeal and the fielder erred (ie threw the ball into dead ball territory) no further appeal is allowed on the runner at first base in the OP. I think this is the case in all three codes; if not, have at it.

Different appeal. The first is a "leaving early" appeal and the second is a failure to retouch required bases on an award appeal. If that wouldn't be upheld, there would never be a reason to retouch on a ball thrown into DBT.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tcarilli

Since the initial attempt to retire the runner at first after the catch is an appeal and the fielder erred (ie threw the ball into dead ball territory) no further appeal is allowed on the runner at first base in the OP. I think this is the case in all three codes; if not, have at it.

Two things:

1) An "err" on a continuous action appeal doesn't negate the right to further appeals after the ball again becomes live. An "err" on a "relaxed action" appeal does negate that right.

2) In FED, the defense can continue to appeal eve if they throw the ball out of play on the first (relaxed action) appeal.

[tcarilli]

What is the reference for that (ie relaxed vs. not relaxed).

What is the difference between a retouch and a "leaving early." We aren't including 2nd base in any of this, yes? If so, leave it out. I am only concerned with the retouch of first.

[johnnyg08]

I think relaxed vs not relaxed is J/R terminology.

The difference between retouch and "leaving early" is I think two different terms. Retouch = "Tag up" and Leaving Early is leaving early...the point of this thread is that even if the ball is thrown out of play or into DBT (dead ball territory) on a caught fly ball, even though there is a base award the runner is still obiligated to "tag up" prior to his base award and if he advances to and touches 3B if he started on 1B, he loses the right to retouch 1B and may be called out on appeal. (that's my understanding anyway.) for OBR rules.

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I think relaxed vs not relaxed is J/R terminology.

The difference between retouch and "leaving early" is I think two different terms. Retouch = "Tag up" and Leaving Early is leaving early...the point of this thread is that even if the ball is thrown out of play or into DBT (dead ball territory) on a caught fly ball, even though there is a base award the runner is still obiligated to "tag up" prior to his base award and if he advances to and touches 3B if he started on 1B, he loses the right to retouch 1B and may be called out on appeal. (that's my understanding anyway.) for OBR rules.

Yes it is Jaksa/Roder, but that is not the way I understand the context. One does not need to retouch (absent a foul ball) unless the ball is caught and the runner has left early.

Yes I understand that he is obligated to retouch first on the award, but he has to retouch because he left early, that is why the defense is appealing in the first place.