Does the run score?

[starman]

I am not an ump, I just read the message board a lot. I was hoping someone could set me straight on this play. This happened in my son's game today.

Bases loaded. 1 Out.
Ground ball to Third.
R2 is tagged out by the third baseman.
R1 reaches and tags second base, however, he gets confused and retreats towards first base. This reinstates the force.
The third baseman throws to second to get the third out. However, R3 crosses the plate before second out. Does the run count?

The ump initially counted the run. The the defensive coach talked him out of it. I did not hear the converstation.

I know that the run would not count if it was a straight forwad double play. However, instinctivly I think that since R1 reached second the run should count. I am having trouble finding anything in the MLB rule book to clarify this.

[dash_riprock]

When R1 retreats toward 1st, the force is reinstated. The run does not score. This is not a time play.

[Mrumpiresir]

Once R1 retreated toward first base, by rule the force is reinstated. The run does not score.

[jdmara]

I agree...The run does not count.

-Josh

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by starman

I know that the run would not count if it was a straight forward double play. However, instinctively I think that since R1 reached second the run should count. I am having trouble finding anything in the MLB rule book to clarify this.

Stop looking. Your "instincts" or intuitions are incorrect. R1 merely reaching 2B does not change the play: if the 3rd out is a force play, no run can score (4.09). As the others have posted, the force was reinstated by the baserunning error.

[starman]

Thanks guys. 4.09 satisfies me.

[johnnyg08]

So, more specifically if a force is possible on that runner and it's the third out, no run can score right? So even if it's a tag, not a force we still have no run right?

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

So, more specifically if a force is possible on that runner and it's the third out, no run can score right? So even if it's a tag, not a force we still have no run right?

If the third out is made during a force situation, no matter how the out is made, no run can score.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

So even if it's a tag, not a force we still have no run right?

You need to look up the definition of a force play. It has nothing to do with how the runner is put out.

[johnnyg08]

Or I could ask the question on here since that is the purpose. I'm aware of what I can look up...thanks

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Or I could ask the question on here since that is the purpose. I'm aware of what I can look up...thanks

The purpose of this board is to communicate with fellow umpires. This is not a rules verification board! If someone is kind enough to answer your rules question, you say "Thank You" and be on your way. If one of more knowledge than you tells you "you can look this up......", you say "Thank You" and be on your way. That is what respect for each other is about. If you need to learn that, you don't belong here!

JMHO

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Or I could ask the question on here since that is the purpose. I'm aware of what I can look up...thanks

You're welcome.

Obviously you haven't looked it up, and are content to be snotty. This is a very basic rule that you shouldn't be umpiring without knowing.

Originally Posted by Rule 2.00

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

It's a force play if the runner is forced to advance. This status has nothing to do with how he is put out — tagging the runner or the base doesn't affect whether the play is a force play.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

The purpose of this board is to communicate with fellow umpires. This is not a rules verification board! If someone is kind enough to answer your rules question, you say "Thank You" and be on your way. If one of more knowledge than you tells you "you can look this up......", you say "Thank You" and be on your way. That is what respect for each other is about. If you need to learn that, you don't belong here!

JMHO

Are you naturally this grouchy, or is it something you've worked on over time? Is this something I should look forward to? Should I get a mentor?

[greymule]

In the OP, the run of course does not score.

However:

R3, R1, 2 outs. Batter singles down the 3B line. R3 scores, R1 stops at 2B. The ball comes in to the mound. As F1 awaits the next batter, R2 now retreats toward 1B (perhaps thinking the ball was foul, perhaps to retrieve his hat, wrongly assuming that time had been called), and F1 throws to F4 for the reinstated force.

This third out seems to me to be a new play, occurring after the continuing action of the original play. I would not nullify the run.

I know it's so unlikely that it's probably not addressed anywhere, but in 39 years I did see it happen once (though I admit it was in softball).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by greymule

In the OP, the run of course does not score.

However:

R3, R1, 2 outs. Batter singles down the 3B line. R3 scores, R1 stops at 2B. The ball comes in to the mound. As F1 awaits the next batter, R2 now retreats toward 1B (perhaps thinking the ball was foul, perhaps to retrieve his hat, wrongly assuming that time had been called), and F1 throws to F4 for the reinstated force.

This third out seems to me to be a new play, occurring after the continuing action of the original play. I would not nullify the run.

I know it's so unlikely that it's probably not addressed anywhere, but in 39 years I did see it happen once (though I admit it was in softball).

If it's a "reinstated force" then the run doesn't count. If it's not, then the run does count.

While the timing may determine which it is, there's no time frame when it's both a "reinstated force" and a timing play (to allow the run to score).