Does the run score?

[TwoBits]

FED, R3, 2 outs, 2 strikes on the batter. Pitcher in windup position not paying attention to R3. R3 takes off for home. Pitcher begins windup, but R3 has just a huge jump that he crosses home plate before the ball gets to the batter. The batter watches the pitch right down the middle of the strike zone for strike three.

Score it or not?

[UmpJM]

TwoBits,

No, the run does not score.

However, the R3 has a MAJOR contract in his future.

JM

[bossman72]

As JM says, no score. Batter was 3rd out before reaching first base.

[johnnyg08]

nice question...no run...see bossman72 and others

[mick]

Originally Posted by bossman72

As JM says, no score. Batter was 3rd out before reaching first base.

Could you reference that for me, please?

I see 9.1.1 Situation G where the batter strikes before the runner crosses, but I don't know why the run doesn't count when the runner crossed before strike 3.
Seems like the run should count to me. What am I missing?

[UmpJM]

mick,

It goes to the definiton of "a play" as used in 4.09(b)Ex.(1):

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.

(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; ...

Now though the rules use "a play" in a number of different ways, the text of the rules never defines it.

In this context, the universal interpretation is that "a play" begins when the pitcher initiates his delivery. Since the BR did not reach 1B safely, and it was the 3rd out, and the runner occupied 3B when the play began, his run does not score.

Likewise, if somehow the batter had hit a fly ball (without killing the R3) instead of striking out, and the ball were caught with less than 2 outs, the runner would be under a 7.10(a) retouch obligation.

JM

[mick]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mick,

It goes to the definiton of "a play" as used in 4.09(b)Ex.(1):



Now though the rules use "a play" in a number of different ways, the text of the rules never defines it.

In this context, the universal interpretation is that "a play" begins when the pitcher initiates his delivery. Since the BR did not reach 1B safely, and it was the 3rd out, and the runner occupied 3B when the play began, his run does not score.

Likewise, if somehow the batter had hit a fly ball (without killing the R3) instead of striking out, and the ball were caught with less than 2 outs, the runner would be under a 7.10(a) retouch obligation.

JM

Thanks, JM, but ...

From a 1995 J/R:

It is a play if there is a
(1) tag or tag try of a runner
(2) tag or tag try of a base
(3) throw to another fielder in a try to put out a runner
(4) rundown, or
(5) balk.

I understand that MLB and Fed will vary, but a pitch being considered a play must be related only to Fed (if it really is) and not to levels above [MLB] or below [LL].

[UmpJM]

Mick,

As I said above, the phrase "a play" has a number of different meanings. The J/R discussion you cite is in reference to appeals and baserunning awards as mentioned in 7.10 and 7.05(g).

J/R uses the phrase "continuous action" (which you will find nowhere in the rule book) to define the "related action" or "play" during which a run is nullified if the BR does not reach 1B.

JM

[Mrumpiresir]

Would not the time of the pitch be a factor to be considered here? If the batter had fouled off the pitch, R3 would return to 3rd because he did not reach the plate before the TOP. So in the OP, he did not score before the TOP and the batter was retired for the third out and logically, no run scores.

[mick]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mick,

As I said above, the phrase "a play" has a number of different meanings. The J/R discussion you cite is in reference to appeals and baserunning awards as mentioned in 7.10 and 7.05(g).
...
JM

JM,
Actually the J/R quote came from the definition *pairs* [Play or No Play].
I should have noted that.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mick

Thanks, JM, but ...

From a 1995 J/R:

It is a play if there is a
(1) tag or tag try of a runner
(2) tag or tag try of a base
(3) throw to another fielder in a try to put out a runner
(4) rundown, or
(5) balk.

I understand that MLB and Fed will vary, but a pitch being considered a play must be related only to Fed (if it really is) and not to levels above [MLB] or below [LL].

Mick, the pitch is not the play. The play is the putout of BR.

[mick]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Mick, the pitch is not the play. The play is the putout of BR.

I can live with that.
And in the OP the runner scored before the play, while in the case given, the runner crossed during the play.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mick

I can live with that.
And in the OP the runner scored before the play, while in the case given, the runner crossed during the play.

"Play" means different things in different situations. For throws OOP, it's the "a legitimate attempt to retire a runner" definition. For the play in this thread it's "beginning with TOP and ending when F1 again has the ball and all action is relaxed, and includes any appeals"

[3appleshigh]

I would also say that a pitch is a Throw from one fielder to another in an attempt to get someone out. But that may be streaching it a bit.

[TwoBits]

I am on the side of those who believe the run doesn't count. However, this is the problem that is being debated in my association:

FED Rule 9-1-1 Exception: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in whcih the third out is made as follows:
a) by the batter-runner before he touches first base.

This is also OBR Rule 4.09a Exception 1.

The "batter-runner" is defined in FED Rule 2-7-3: A batter-runner is a palyer who has finished a time at bat until he is put out or until playing action ends.

Batter-runner is similarly defined in OBR Rule 2.00

In this situation, remember the pitch had not yet been ruled strike three until after R3 had crossed the plate. The debate we are having is that the batter had not finished his time at bat because the pitch had not yet crossed the plate and cannot considered a batter-runner. Therefore, rules referencing batter-runner do not apply here.