The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 02, 2009, 09:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 48
Does the run score?

I am not an ump, I just read the message board a lot. I was hoping someone could set me straight on this play. This happened in my son's game today.

Bases loaded. 1 Out.
Ground ball to Third.
R2 is tagged out by the third baseman.
R1 reaches and tags second base, however, he gets confused and retreats towards first base. This reinstates the force.
The third baseman throws to second to get the third out. However, R3 crosses the plate before second out. Does the run count?

The ump initially counted the run. The the defensive coach talked him out of it. I did not hear the converstation.

I know that the run would not count if it was a straight forwad double play. However, instinctivly I think that since R1 reached second the run should count. I am having trouble finding anything in the MLB rule book to clarify this.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 02, 2009, 09:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 1,428
When R1 retreats toward 1st, the force is reinstated. The run does not score. This is not a time play.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 02, 2009, 09:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Aurora CO
Posts: 145
Once R1 retreated toward first base, by rule the force is reinstated. The run does not score.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 02, 2009, 10:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,230
I agree...The run does not count.

-Josh
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2009, 08:51am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I know that the run would not count if it was a straight forward double play. However, instinctively I think that since R1 reached second the run should count. I am having trouble finding anything in the MLB rule book to clarify this.
Stop looking. Your "instincts" or intuitions are incorrect. R1 merely reaching 2B does not change the play: if the 3rd out is a force play, no run can score (4.09). As the others have posted, the force was reinstated by the baserunning error.
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2009, 09:16am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 48
Thanks guys. 4.09 satisfies me.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2009, 09:40am
Stop staring at me swan.
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,974
So, more specifically if a force is possible on that runner and it's the third out, no run can score right? So even if it's a tag, not a force we still have no run right?
__________________
It's like Deja Vu all over again
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2009, 10:22am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NY state
Posts: 1,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyg08 View Post
So, more specifically if a force is possible on that runner and it's the third out, no run can score right? So even if it's a tag, not a force we still have no run right?
If the third out is made during a force situation, no matter how the out is made, no run can score.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2009, 10:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyg08 View Post
So even if it's a tag, not a force we still have no run right?
You need to look up the definition of a force play. It has nothing to do with how the runner is put out.
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2009, 10:57am
Stop staring at me swan.
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,974
Or I could ask the question on here since that is the purpose. I'm aware of what I can look up...thanks
__________________
It's like Deja Vu all over again
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2009, 02:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 2,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyg08 View Post
Or I could ask the question on here since that is the purpose. I'm aware of what I can look up...thanks
The purpose of this board is to communicate with fellow umpires. This is not a rules verification board! If someone is kind enough to answer your rules question, you say "Thank You" and be on your way. If one of more knowledge than you tells you "you can look this up......", you say "Thank You" and be on your way. That is what respect for each other is about. If you need to learn that, you don't belong here!

JMHO
__________________
When in doubt, bang 'em out!
Ozzy
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2009, 04:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyg08 View Post
Or I could ask the question on here since that is the purpose. I'm aware of what I can look up...thanks
You're welcome.

Obviously you haven't looked it up, and are content to be snotty. This is a very basic rule that you shouldn't be umpiring without knowing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule 2.00
A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.
It's a force play if the runner is forced to advance. This status has nothing to do with how he is put out — tagging the runner or the base doesn't affect whether the play is a force play.
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2009, 05:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900 View Post
The purpose of this board is to communicate with fellow umpires. This is not a rules verification board! If someone is kind enough to answer your rules question, you say "Thank You" and be on your way. If one of more knowledge than you tells you "you can look this up......", you say "Thank You" and be on your way. That is what respect for each other is about. If you need to learn that, you don't belong here!

JMHO
Are you naturally this grouchy, or is it something you've worked on over time? Is this something I should look forward to? Should I get a mentor?
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2009, 05:19pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 3,100
In the OP, the run of course does not score.

However:

R3, R1, 2 outs. Batter singles down the 3B line. R3 scores, R1 stops at 2B. The ball comes in to the mound. As F1 awaits the next batter, R2 now retreats toward 1B (perhaps thinking the ball was foul, perhaps to retrieve his hat, wrongly assuming that time had been called), and F1 throws to F4 for the reinstated force.

This third out seems to me to be a new play, occurring after the continuing action of the original play. I would not nullify the run.

I know it's so unlikely that it's probably not addressed anywhere, but in 39 years I did see it happen once (though I admit it was in softball).
__________________
greymule
More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men!
Roll Tide!
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 03, 2009, 06:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule View Post
In the OP, the run of course does not score.

However:

R3, R1, 2 outs. Batter singles down the 3B line. R3 scores, R1 stops at 2B. The ball comes in to the mound. As F1 awaits the next batter, R2 now retreats toward 1B (perhaps thinking the ball was foul, perhaps to retrieve his hat, wrongly assuming that time had been called), and F1 throws to F4 for the reinstated force.

This third out seems to me to be a new play, occurring after the continuing action of the original play. I would not nullify the run.

I know it's so unlikely that it's probably not addressed anywhere, but in 39 years I did see it happen once (though I admit it was in softball).
If it's a "reinstated force" then the run doesn't count. If it's not, then the run does count.

While the timing may determine which it is, there's no time frame when it's both a "reinstated force" and a timing play (to allow the run to score).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Does the run score? TwoBits Baseball 29 Wed Mar 26, 2008 06:05pm
Would they ever score? Mark Padgett Basketball 3 Mon Mar 03, 2008 08:18am
Does run score? tmckeon Baseball 9 Mon Mar 26, 2007 02:17pm
Score Out? soclueless Basketball 11 Mon Feb 12, 2007 02:59pm
Run Score? #2 BktBallRef Baseball 3 Thu Aug 03, 2006 03:53pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:19am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1