out of baseline??

[bigredmachine]

Runner takes a wide turn around third and heads home. The catcher runs up the line while the ball is in flight from the centerfielder. The runner runs to the right of the catcher which makes him look like he is way out of the baseline. After the runner has passed the catcher, the catcher catches the ball and tries to swipe tag the runner, who is already behind him and trying to get to the plate.

The coach said he was out of baseline. I ruled the runner safe, because he established his baseline after he rounded third, and he was also avoiding a collision with the catcher. I also told the coach that I could have called obstruction on the catcher because he was in the runners basepath without the ball.

What do you think?

[JJ]

Hmmm..."the catcher runs up the line...the runner runs to the right of the catcher...after the runner has passed the catcher the catcher catches the ball...I also told the coach that I could have called obstruction on the catcher..."

I guess we'd all like to know what code you playing under. We'd also like to know why you DIDN'T call obstruction - from your description the catcher did not have the ball when the runner passed him, and being called out for being out of the baseline involves trying to avoid a tag, which is not possible if the catcher is not in possession of the ball trying to tag him. This is an easy call for me. "That's Obstruction!". Could have even been a no-call. When the coach comes out, I tell him just what I just told you - for me to call him out for being out of the baseline, he has to be trying to avoid a tag, and if the fielder involved didn't even have the ball then there WAS no tag attempt. Oh, and coach, if the fielder doesn't have the ball, he can't be in the runner's way - that's obstruction.

[dash_riprock]

The runner cannot be out for being more than 3 feet out of his baseline unless and until a fielder with the ball attempts to tag him (the "rounding 3rd" part in your situation is irrelevant). You were correct in not calling it.

As for the OBS - you say the runner made a wide turn around 3rd while the catcher ran up the line. Doesn't sound like OBS to me. In any event, you shouldn't bring this up. If you could have called OBS, why didn't you?

[kylejt]

In your opinion, did the throw take the catcher to his position?

[bigredmachine]

Originally Posted by JJ

Hmmm..."the catcher runs up the line...the runner runs to the right of the catcher...after the runner has passed the catcher the catcher catches the ball...I also told the coach that I could have called obstruction on the catcher..."

I guess we'd all like to know what code you playing under. We'd also like to know why you DIDN'T call obstruction - from your description the catcher did not have the ball when the runner passed him, and being called out for being out of the baseline involves trying to avoid a tag, which is not possible if the catcher is not in possession of the ball trying to tag him. This is an easy call for me. "That's Obstruction!". Could have even been a no-call. When the coach comes out, I tell him just what I just told you - for me to call him out for being out of the baseline, he has to be trying to avoid a tag, and if the fielder involved didn't even have the ball then there WAS no tag attempt. Oh, and coach, if the fielder doesn't have the ball, he can't be in the runner's way - that's obstruction.

I was in the field, my plate ump simply told him he was trying to avoid collision. I gave the coach both scenarios, obstruction, and the fact that he was not out of baseline because he was avoiding a collision.

thanks.

[bigredmachine]

he came up the line toward 3rd about 15 - 20 feet or so. I was in the field

[bigredmachine]

thanks.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by bigredmachine

I was in the field, my plate ump simply told him he was trying to avoid collision. I gave the coach both scenarios, obstruction, and the fact that he was not out of baseline because he was avoiding a collision.thanks.

I'm a little confused. You said in the OP that you ruled the runner safe, then explained things to the coach. But you also say that you were in the field.
That wasnt your call, or place to explain things. You should've just said
" Coach, talk to my partner, it was his call".......

[bigredmachine]

Originally Posted by archangel

I'm a little confused. You said in the OP that you ruled the runner safe, then explained things to the coach. But you also say that you were in the field.
That wasnt your call, or place to explain things. You should've just said
" Coach, talk to my partner, it was his call".......

Well the coach finally made it to me after he had his say to my partner. It was a babe ruth fall ball game and normally the coaches don't know anything in this league anyway. I tried my best to explain any situation where a runner is not ruled out of baseline so he would be quiet and go to the dugout. He was eventually in the parking lot.

[JJ]

If you're in the field this is not a discussion you should be having with the coach. It was your partner's call, therefore his explanation. I'd reserve any discussion with HIM for after the game, and then you bet I'd be having that discussion (why did you call what you did, and how did you explain your call to that coach?).
As field umpire it's not your position to try to explain your partner's call or no call. I have no idea in some plays why my partner makes the call he does, and I'm surely not going to try to explain what I don't know for 100% certainty. What happens if you disagree with his call from your vantage point - are you still going to try to explain his call to a coach? That's waaay out of my league...

JJ

[bigredmachine]

I agree, but sometimes when you are calling games in a small town babe ruth league, where you have coaches and parents that don't know a whole lot about the game or umpiring, you have to go outside the box and away from normal umpiring techniques. If this had been a college game or even high school, we wouldn't be having this conversation. In this situation, the coach asked me about it, and told him what the rules were about baserunning. It started out as a normal conversation, but he preceded to take it too far. Appreciate the input.

[PeteBooth]

WE either have OBS or we do not. you DO NOT tell a coach "I could have called OBS on F2" because the fact is you didn't so IMO that point is moot.

In a later response you said Babe Ruth Fall ball league. I believe Babe Ruth is OBR based. If that's the case it sounds as if F2 needed to be where he was in order to field the thrown ball. That is a different definition than some other rule codes which includes NCAA / FED.

The bottom line in this OP is that a base runner establishes his baseline when the defense applys a tag on him. The runner was already PAST F2 so that point is also moot.

Sounds as though both you and your partner need to attend a good umpire clinic.

Pete Booth

[bigredmachine]

You are missing my point about why I did what I did. I was trying to give the coach the explanation about the baserunning rules, in which case I did correctly. My partner called him safe and he was correct, because of how his baseline was established after he rounded third, and also trying to avoid the collision. He came to me for verification and I gave it to him, which I don't mind doing in this league, and have to do quite often. I have called college ball in one of the best college associations around- midsouth collegiate, and I know what I am doing, but like I said - in some leagues you have to break away from traditional umpire techniques, as long as you get the call right, and are professional.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

WE either have OBS or we do not. you DO NOT tell a coach "I could have called OBS on F2" because the fact is you didn't so IMO that point is moot.

In a later response you said Babe Ruth Fall ball league. I believe Babe Ruth is OBR based. If that's the case it sounds as if F2 needed to be where he was in order to field the thrown ball. That is a different definition than some other rule codes which includes NCAA / FED.

The bottom line in this OP is that a base runner establishes his baseline when the defense applys a tag on him. The runner was already PAST F2 so that point is also moot.

Sounds as though both you and your partner need to attend a good umpire clinic.

Pete Booth

It's Fall ball, Pete. And if they run their Fall league in a similar fashion to the way we run ours here, it's an instructional league for not just players, but for newer coaches as well. It's not out of the norm to let a coach in on some of our secrets during Fall ball. Just don't give the super secret sign away.......



Tim.

[griff901c]

fall ball sucks

griff