Score the run

[SAump]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

he's not the boss anymore.

How do you explain the situation to the manger who refuses to allow his players off the field and also wants the run wiped off the board?

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by SAump

How do you explain the situation to the manger who wants the run wiped off the board?

"the inning is over when your guy tagged the runner from second."

[SAump]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

"the inning is over when your guy tagged the runner from second."

The manager responds, "How can you award a base hit and an RBI when the BR failed to reach 1B before it was tagged?" OBR 6.05j or J/R 6B(2)(b), pg 51

See J/R 6A(5) EX 2 Note {pg 50}: "if the runner who failed to touch his advanced base in the example play was the batter-runner (desertion), then the third out was the batter-runner before first base, and the run cannot score by rule."

[UmpTTS43]

Has anyone considered contacting Jim Evans for his thoughts on this matter? I go to him on situations such as this.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by SAump

The manager responds, "How can you award a base hit and an RBI when the BR failed to reach 1B before it was tagged?" OBR 6.05j or J/R 6B(2)(b), pg 51

See J/R 6A(5) EX 2 Note {pg 50}: if the runner who failed to touch his advanced base in the example play was the batter-runner (desertion), then the third out was the batter-runner before first base, and the run cannot score by rule.

"i'm not awarding a base hit. if you're so terribly concerned with the scoring of the play, it is a fielder's choice, and, in this case, it was a poor choice because it allowed the run to score before the third out ended the inning."

[SAump]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

"i'm not awarding a base hit. if you're so terribly concerned with the scoring of the play, it is a fielder's choice, and, in this case, it was a poor choice because it allowed the run to score before the third out ended the inning."

It would not go down as a fielder's choice or error. It would go down as a protest of 4.09, 6.05j, 7.12. The fielder's choice was to tag R2 for the 3rd out and to throw out the B/R for the 4th out. There was no guarantee of a good throw to 1B or an out on a speedy B/R to erase the run. The fielder did exactly what he is required to do. He did not make any mistakes and he was unfairly punished for his excellent play-making skills. It was also dumb that R2 allowed himself to be tagged out by F5 {1st rule of baserunning outs, to tballump}.

Taking away the fielder's choice to protect himself from making a bad or timely throw and ending the inning pre-maturely after the 3rd out was made at 3B is incorrect. The B/R actions are also important evidence. If he beats the throw to first, score the run. If he doesn't beat the throw to first, take it away. This becomes a protestable situation unless you can correctly justify the end of the inning. The 4th or 5th outs become the 3rd out, for all purposes, and cannot be meaninglessly tossed aside. As a manager, I would not allow my team to leave the field until my protest was recognized.

PBUC recognizes that any protestable issues may cost a MiLB umpire his job. Study the OBR rules carefully, and realize that not all customs and traditions are emphasized correctly. This may be one of those 230-something errors noted in the rules by J/R and others.

[bobbybanaduck]

add a former chief instructor at jimmy's to the list that disagree with fitzy's interp (which, still, nobody has been able to produce and submit as evidence.) exiting discussion at this point, leaving with the summation of why we came up with what we did...

- inning ended when tag of R2 occurred (absent of any appealable offense, of course)

-apparent 4th out can only occur on an appeal

- B/R is not required by rule to continue running to first after the inning has ended (so this is not appealable)

- B/R did not desert as evidenced by his position 1/2 way to first when the tag was applied (so we aren't banging him for desertion and ending the inning there, instead of upon the tag of R2)

protest is recognized...

protest on 4.09 disallowed because the 3rd out was made on R2, which satisfies 4.09a exceptions 1, 2, and 3.

protest of 6.05j disallowed because the inning was over per 2.00 definition of inning

protest of 7.12 disallowed because it was not the 3rd out. the 3rd out occurred when R2 was tagged.

[SAump]

Note: The third out did not terminate the inning. For example, one can apply the same OP situation and ruling w/ 1 out, instead of 2. Let us go to Rick Roder for a valid reason, 10-IV Ex 3, which has also been noted earlier by RichMSN, Bob J and others.

Not an appeal: ... this is an advantageous fourth out and supercedes the former third out, and no run can score.

Subsequent outs are not only possible, but recognized by the authority of MLB and PBUC Staff. How can you not rule on a batter-runner half way down the baseline when F3 tags 1B for a non-routine DP? Support your position while remaining faithful to the principles of the game.
BRD 410, pg 451 to 452.

That, my friend, falls under res ipsa loquitur.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by SAump

See J/R 6A(5) EX 2 Note {pg 50}: if the runner who failed to touch his advanced base in the example play was the batter-runner (desertion), then the third out was the batter-runner before first base, and the run cannot score by rule.

what is the example play in his book?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by SAump
See J/R 6A(5) EX 2 Note {pg 50}: if the runner who failed to touch his advanced base in the example play was the batter-runner (desertion), then the third out was the batter-runner before first base, and the run cannot score by rule.

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

what is the example play in his book?

J/R Pgs 48-50 dealing with abandonment {a time play}, the out is not a force out. The run can score if it happens afterwards. However, if the defense appeals a missed base, it becomes a force {3rd} out. The umpire should take caution not to coach the defense.

But desertion in OP, the run cannot score by rule. Also supported by J/R 10-IV.