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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 31, 2008, 07:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900
I don't think that it would be possible for the runner to correct this mistake. Once he rounded first, we (as umpires) assume that he touched the bag until appealed. At this point, the BR has completed his responsibility to touch 1st.

In the OP the BR never bothered to complete his responsibility although he could have tried to do so before entering the dugout. You're right..... it's getting deep!

Why can't the runner correct his mistake? The only problem is that he must correct his mistake before being called out by appeal. If he is out by appeal then he was put out before he acquired first base.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 31, 2008, 08:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Why can't the runner correct his mistake? The only problem is that he must correct his mistake before being called out by appeal. If he is out by appeal then he was put out before he acquired first base.

MTD, Sr.
Mark,
He's a retired runner at this point - I don't see how he can correct anything, even something that happened prior to his being retired.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 31, 2008, 09:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900
I don't think that it would be possible for the runner to correct this mistake. Once he rounded first, we (as umpires) assume that he touched the bag until appealed. At this point, the BR has completed his responsibility to touch 1st.

In the OP the BR never bothered to complete his responsibility although he could have tried to do so before entering the dugout. You're right..... it's getting deep!
Are we on the 5th out?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 31, 2008, 10:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
I agree. Now take this: BR rounds first, but misses it -- then the third out is made by tagging BR as he slides into second. Can BR still correct his error?
No, he is out. Defense could appeal him missing 1B for advantageous 4th out though.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 31, 2008, 10:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900
R2 was tagged for the 3rd out. BR never touched 1st so the defense has the right to appeal the BR. This appeal creates a 4th out which negates the run. The 4th out is rarely seen because most teams don't even realize that it exists and many amateur umpires don't realize it either! Anytime a BR gives up on a 3rd out not made by him is subject to appeal
The defense cannot appeal BR. You can't appeal a runner at a base he never reached. The out is automatically called by the umpire.

If you say that the defense can appeal BR in this, then the flip side is that they would also have the choice not to. if that was the case, how exactly do you account for BR absent an appeal? He never reached first, yet was never put out. It is this contradiction that shows why this is not an appealable offense, but an automatic out.

To take it a step further, let's say that we have the same situation in the OP, but with no one out. The play happens the same way (touch of home, tag of R2, BR gives up.) Now there is one out, and BR is sitting in the dugout. If we use your logic, and the defense appeals the out, then we have two out. What happens if a pitch is thrown instead? BR was never put out, but he's not on base. Do you go and get BR out of the dugout and put him on first?

In short, desertion is an automatic out, not an appeal.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 01, 2008, 03:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
The defense cannot appeal BR. You can't appeal a runner at a base he never reached. The out is automatically called by the umpire.

If you say that the defense can appeal BR in this, then the flip side is that they would also have the choice not to. if that was the case, how exactly do you account for BR absent an appeal? He never reached first, yet was never put out. It is this contradiction that shows why this is not an appealable offense, but an automatic out.

To take it a step further, let's say that we have the same situation in the OP, but with no one out. The play happens the same way (touch of home, tag of R2, BR gives up.) Now there is one out, and BR is sitting in the dugout. If we use your logic, and the defense appeals the out, then we have two out. What happens if a pitch is thrown instead? BR was never put out, but he's not on base. Do you go and get BR out of the dugout and put him on first?

In short, desertion is an automatic out, not an appeal.
If the throw was before the BR went to the dugout, it would be recognized as an advantageous fourth out. It's idiotic, but analogous to the play posted by Carl a few years ago where those in charge were presented with a scenario where the batter blows out an ankle and a non-forced runner is put out for a third out when the runner scores. The powers that be (I don't remember who, exactly, perhaps Fitzpatrick) said that you could, indeed throw to first and have that be an advantageous fourth out.

I'd be hard pressed to call the BR out for desertion, though, for failing to run to first AFTER a third out was recorded elsewhere, authoritative opinion be damned.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 01, 2008, 03:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
If the throw was before the BR went to the dugout, it would be recognized as an advantageous fourth out. It's idiotic, but analogous to the play posted by Carl a few years ago where those in charge were presented with a scenario where the batter blows out an ankle and a non-forced runner is put out for a third out when the runner scores. The powers that be (I don't remember who, exactly, perhaps Fitzpatrick) said that you could, indeed throw to first and have that be an advantageous fourth out.
I agree, but in the situation you bring up, the throw precedes the desertion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
I'd be hard pressed to call the BR out for desertion, though, for failing to run to first AFTER a third out was recorded elsewhere, authoritative opinion be damned.
This is where I'm torn. On the one hand, the run precedes the third out. On the other, the BR never acquires first.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 01, 2008, 07:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
I agree, but in the situation you bring up, the throw precedes the desertion.
Sounds like that's the case in the OP, too. He's heading for the dugout when the throw is made. He doesn't desert on a batted ball until reaching the dugout (assuming nothing has changed), unlike the new rule where leaving the dirt circle on the uncaught third strike is evidence of desertion.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 01, 2008, 07:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M
Mark,
He's a retired runner at this point - I don't see how he can correct anything, even something that happened prior to his being retired.
I agree, and I agree with the general mind that the defense can record an advantageous 4th out. The BR missed a base, so the appeal would negate any run scored on the play.

It's less clear to me in the OP that the defense is entitled to an advantageous 4th out. My concern is that the so-called 4th out may be granted on appeal, but throwing BR out at first is not an appeal play. And I don't see why BR is obligated to run to 1B after 3 are out. So how could he abandon/desert?

PLAY: R2, R3, 2 outs. Batter grounds to F5, who tags R2 (not forced) after R3 has scored. F5, thinking that there was only 1 out, fires over to F3 to complete a double play. F3 was set up to receive the throw anyway, and he catches the throw from F5 with his foot on 1B, prior to BR reaching the base (he was running all the way, no desertion, abandonment, etc.).

Score the run? If so, how is this different from the OP?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 01, 2008, 08:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M
Mark,
He's a retired runner at this point - I don't see how he can correct anything, even something that happened prior to his being retired.

Steve:

You are correct. I forgot about him being tagged out at second. I was more concerned about getting the advantageous fourth (4th) out.

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 01, 2008, 09:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
The defense cannot appeal BR. You can't appeal a runner at a base he never reached. The out is automatically called by the umpire.

If you say that the defense can appeal BR in this, then the flip side is that they would also have the choice not to. if that was the case, how exactly do you account for BR absent an appeal? He never reached first, yet was never put out. It is this contradiction that shows why this is not an appealable offense, but an automatic out.

To take it a step further, let's say that we have the same situation in the OP, but with no one out. The play happens the same way (touch of home, tag of R2, BR gives up.) Now there is one out, and BR is sitting in the dugout. If we use your logic, and the defense appeals the out, then we have two out. What happens if a pitch is thrown instead? BR was never put out, but he's not on base. Do you go and get BR out of the dugout and put him on first?

In short, desertion is an automatic out, not an appeal.
Matt, you are wrong.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 01, 2008, 09:44am
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2008 BRD Section 3

You can appeal for the advantageous fourth out.

FED per Hopkins
OBR per Fitzpatrick
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 01, 2008, 10:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives
2008 BRD Section 3

You can appeal for the advantageous fourth out.

FED per Hopkins
OBR per Fitzpatrick
Thanks Rich, I am at a different work location and I do not have any of my files with me.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 01, 2008, 12:22pm
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This is referred to as desertion if a runner fails to go to 1st base, as required!
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 01, 2008, 12:30pm
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Smile

Umpire would automatically call BR out, when he reaches dead ball territory in NFHS, when he leaves the established baseline in NCAA or PRO. If he does either of these things before the 3rd out, then no run would score. If he does so after the 3rd out, the ball is already dead and you have nothing!
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