Score the run

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by #888

Umpire would automatically call BR out, when he reaches dead ball territory in NFHS, when he leaves the established baseline in NCAA or PRO. If he does either of these things before the 3rd out, then no run would score. If he does so after the 3rd out, the ball is already dead and you have nothing!

That would seem to be my point.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by #888

Umpire would automatically call BR out, when he reaches dead ball territory in NFHS, when he leaves the established baseline in NCAA or PRO. If he does either of these things before the 3rd out, then no run would score. If he does so after the 3rd out, the ball is already dead and you have nothing!

It is not dead. Otherwise, you could never have an advantageous fourth out appeal since PRO/NCAA rules require a live ball for an appeal.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It is not dead. Otherwise, you could never have an advantageous fourth out appeal since PRO/NCAA rules require a live ball for an appeal.

True. Which brings me back to my other point: why would a play on BR at 1B be an appeal? Why would desertion be an appeal? References?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Matt, you are wrong.

No, I'm not. If you throw to first before the desertion, then it is a normal put-out. If you throw after, it's moot.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Matt

No, I'm not. If you throw to first before the desertion, then it is a normal put-out. If you throw after, it's moot.

Well I guess that there are many of us that are doing it incorrectly including the former head of he PBUC and the instructors in the MLB schools. I really don't give a crap anymore!

[soundedlikeastrike]

OP has no reference to desertion, that's not considered.
For this post, say the BR runner is running it out, no difference how far the BR gets, once there's 3 outs, who cares.

BR is trying for 1B, sees the tag of R2 for the 3RD out, and heads to where ever offensive players go once there are 3 outs.
I just can't imagine anyway to consider this a base running violation..

I can't help but think, this was simply not "thunk through" before somebody put an interp in writing.

OBR says: no run "if the 3RD out is recorded on the BR before he touches 1B".

We all agree that if indeed BR misses 1B prior to the out, he is subject to the appeal and nulifying the run...

This sit. the "third out" is recorded on R2, a non forced runner..prior to any running violations, a timing play, by any rule set..

How can a violation that occurs after 3 outs even in the wildest stretch be considered?

Somebody has drunk the poison; ruling this an advantageous 4th out IMHO.

Can someone post the exact quote, from the various mentioned authoritive figures/publications? I can't find anything in PBUC, JR, OBR, that would lead me to rule this way..

Seems as simple as: a runner can be safe, out, or in jeopardy.
BR has no opportunity to be safe (there's three outs), so he's not in jeopardy, if your not in jeopardy you can't be retired...

This seems one that should be destined for "BB rules myths" if you ask me.

"All runners must advance to their next base after the third out".

I think something "that big" would be hi-lited and bold in any rule book.

Somebody read "if on the BR before he reaches 1B, and has streeeetched it,, well beyond what it meant/intended, IMHO.

Hope they get it fixed quickly...Like before I ever see it on a field..
Or shoot have I seen on a field, probably..
Has anyone ruled this way on the field, ever?

[yawetag]

soundedlikeastrike,

This is the best I could find. Reading this, I would uphold the 4th out and not allow the run, using the second part of 7.10(d) listed below. The 4th out "takes precedence," thereby not allowing the run to score.

OBR 7.10(b):
Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when—
With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

OBR 7.10(d):
Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field.

Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Well I guess that there are many of us that are doing it incorrectly including the former head of he PBUC and the instructors in the MLB schools. I really don't give a crap anymore!

Do you have any evidence that this is the case?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by yawetag

soundedlikeastrike,

This is the best I could find. Reading this, I would uphold the 4th out and not allow the run, using the second part of 7.10(d) listed below. The 4th out "takes precedence," thereby not allowing the run to score.

7.10(b) is about missed-base appeals. BR has not missed 1B.

7.10(d) is about appeal plays. But why think the OP is an appeal play?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

2008 BRD Section 3

You can appeal for the advantageous fourth out.

FED per Hopkins
OBR per Fitzpatrick

Good catch, Rich. Authority says to grant the "appeal," call BR out, and negate the run.

Doesn't make sense to me, but that's the way they want it called.

[bob jenkins]

FWIW, this play (or a very similar one) caused a big bruhahah in the relatively early days of internet umpiring (heck, it may have even been on r.s.o.) IT's not well covered in the books, but the interp did seem to come down (as I recall) as described here.

I explain it as, "The rules also say that the game is over when the winning run scores. but, we'd both require and allow BR (and other runners) to fulfill the baserunning requirements or we'd allow the defense to get an out and negate the "winning" run. The same is apparently true on "inning ending" runs / outs / plays."

I agree that the OP is not an appeal play -- it's a force play. But, it *could* be an appeal play if the situation were changed slightly.

[tballump]

As each runner and umpires know prior to the batter hitting the ball, the appropriate play in this case is to first base to start with, since this will negate any runs scored due to the rule about the batter being put out at first base for the 3rd out (first rule of baseball). However, in this case the 3rd baseman elects to use (remember he has a choice) the "tag play" which creates a "time play" situation on a non-forced runner and hopes he makes the tag prior the runner touching home plate. Since the fielder elects this choice to make the 3rd out, it is too bad that after making the tag for the 3rd out he now remembers the first rule of baseball and throws to first and gets the slow batter runner for a 4th out. This 4th out is not recognized in this situation. Not our fault fielder forgot the first rule of baseball, and decided on the tag play option for a legitimate 3rd out. However, since the homeplate umpire has ruled the runner from 3rd scored before the tag at 3rd on the runner from 2nd, the run scores on the time play. Now, if the batter runner never advanced to 1st for whatever reason (runner forgets first rule of baseball) or over-ran 1st and on appeal is called out that is where the 4th out interpretation would come into play and now the 4th out is recognized and the run is wiped off the scorebook. However, for more help on this topic, if Fitzy was consulted, it would seem whatever he said would stand since he has a more intricate knowlegde of the rules and interpretations for these types of "knotty problems". Also, I do not know if Chris Jaksa and his partner(sorry I forget his name) are on any posts, but if they are, I would think they might could add some intelligent input on this particular play situation and give some insite into what is and what is not and why, like Dr. Steitz used to do in basketball. Anyway this is just my 2 cents as you guys would say, and I am just a rookie at these posts and always will be since I am just a tballump and my knowlege, unlike yours is limited (maybe I shouldn't have commented at all and just lurked). Seems like several of the umps and moderators here are on top of the game and its rules and have lots of experience and maybe they could contact Chris Jacksa or Rick Darby (I remembered?) for extra insight, but it looks like they are on top of this anyway.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by tballump

As each runner and umpires know prior to the batter hitting the ball, the appropriate play in this case is to first base to start with, since this will negate any runs scored due to the rule about the batter being put out at first base for the 3rd out (first rule of baseball). However, in this case the 3rd baseman elects to use (remember he has a choice) the "tag play" which creates a "time play" situation on a non-forced runner and hopes he makes the tag prior the runner touching home plate. Since the fielder elects this choice to make the 3rd out, it is too bad that after making the tag for the 3rd out he now remembers the first rule of baseball and throws to first and gets the slow batter runner for a 4th out. This 4th out is not recognized in this situation. Not our fault fielder forgot the first rule of baseball, and decided on the tag play option for a legitimate 3rd out. However, since the homeplate umpire has ruled the runner from 3rd scored before the tag at 3rd on the runner from 2nd, the run scores on the time play. Now, if the batter runner never advanced to 1st for whatever reason (runner forgets first rule of baseball) or over-ran 1st and on appeal is called out that is where the 4th out interpretation would come into play and now the 4th out is recognized and the run is wiped off the scorebook. However, for more help on this topic, if Fitzy was consulted, it would seem whatever he said would stand since he has a more intricate knowlegde of the rules and interpretations for these types of "knotty problems". Also, I do not know if Chris Jaksa and his partner(sorry I forget his name) are on any posts, but if they are, I would think they might could add some intelligent input on this particular play situation and give some insite into what is and what is not and why, like Dr. Steitz used to do in basketball. Anyway this is just my 2 cents as you guys would say, and I am just a rookie at these posts and always will be since I am just a tballump and my knowlege, unlike yours is limited (maybe I shouldn't have commented at all and just lurked). Seems like several of the umps and moderators here are on top of the game and its rules and have lots of experience and maybe they could contact Chris Jacksa or Rick Darby (I remembered?) for extra insight, but it looks like they are on top of this anyway.

1) Try using paragraphs.

2) It's Chris Jaksa and Rick Roder.

[tballump]

Thanks for the help and name correction.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by tballump

As each runner and umpires know prior to the batter hitting the ball, the appropriate play in this case is to first base to start with, since this will negate any runs scored due to the rule about the batter being put out at first base for the 3rd out (first rule of baseball). However, in this case the 3rd baseman elects to use (remember he has a choice) the "tag play" which creates a "time play" situation on a non-forced runner and hopes he makes the tag prior the runner touching home plate. Since the fielder elects this choice to make the 3rd out, it is too bad that after making the tag for the 3rd out he now remembers the first rule of baseball and throws to first and gets the slow batter runner for a 4th out. This 4th out is not recognized in this situation. Not our fault fielder forgot the first rule of baseball, and decided on the tag play option for a legitimate 3rd out. However, since the homeplate umpire has ruled the runner from 3rd scored before the tag at 3rd on the runner from 2nd, the run scores on the time play. Now, if the batter runner never advanced to 1st for whatever reason (runner forgets first rule of baseball) or over-ran 1st and on appeal is called out that is where the 4th out interpretation would come into play and now the 4th out is recognized and the run is wiped off the scorebook. However, for more help on this topic, if Fitzy was consulted, it would seem whatever he said would stand since he has a more intricate knowlegde of the rules and interpretations for these types of "knotty problems". Also, I do not know if Chris Jaksa and his partner(sorry I forget his name) are on any posts, but if they are, I would think they might could add some intelligent input on this particular play situation and give some insite into what is and what is not and why, like Dr. Steitz used to do in basketball. Anyway this is just my 2 cents as you guys would say, and I am just a rookie at these posts and always will be since I am just a tballump and my knowlege, unlike yours is limited (maybe I shouldn't have commented at all and just lurked). Seems like several of the umps and moderators here are on top of the game and its rules and have lots of experience and maybe they could contact Chris Jacksa or Rick Darby (I remembered?) for extra insight, but it looks like they are on top of this anyway.

cripes, you expect us to decipher all this?