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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 08:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
Unless of course it is your mission to wean the association away from such archaic mechanics and begin to use the preferred mechanics. Then I guess you should continue to wean.

I have never heard of an association that did not welcome input from its membership. Most associations are not totalitarian dictatorships where everyone must march in lockstep and never speak their minds.
I've never belonged to an association where a crew couldn't make their own decision on this coverage. If my PU wants to take the second play, fine. If not, fine. I'll do it either way.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 10:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njdevs00cup
I've got the plate and need some help on this one! I told my partner during pregame I would take the second play in the infield at 3B.

R1 @ 2B, w/ 1 out. Batter hits a ground ball to F6, who looks R1 back to 2B. R1 breaks to third on the throw to F3. F3 catches the wide throw and attempts to make a sweep tag and misses. BU calls the R2 safe. F3 throws to F5, a very close tag out on R1(I made the call). Defensive manager asks BU to ask for help on the tag @1B. BU asks for help and I have the batter safe as well.

My question (after this long winded scenario) is where is the proper position for the plate umpire, when the ball is hit? I came out to the top of the circle to watch for a tag and pivoted toward 3B on the throw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherblue
I think your confusing two different plays here. The umpire schools are teaching you to start up the 3BL with R1. With R2 only, PU only moves up the line 10' max if moving up at all. Then moving to 1BLX. The red book also has it this way. As an advanced mechanic, you can move up into the library and potientially take the play at 3B on R2. If PU isn't taking the play at 3B, and the ball is hit toward the 3BL, he watches the play then moves back to 1BLX. I prefer moving to the point of the plate myself. Looking for the pulled foot/swipe tag, interference on BR, and BU has all plays. 4.6 P39/40 in the red book.
indeed i was confused. the use of "R1" in the original post threw me off. R1 is not at 2B, R1 is called R1 cuz he is at 1B. disregard my entire post. to answer the origianl question (boldface and underlined above in first quote)...PU stays home. as taught at umpire schools, he goes to 1BL extended and watches the action down at 1B and is also responsible for the touch at 3B.

to address the large bold section in the second quote, there is no advanced mechanic that allows the PU to go down and cover on this play. PU stays home. i no longer have any red books as i gave them all away. in your citing of 4.6, does it provide for this advanced mechanic? if it does, it is no longer being taught and will not be in the revised version of the manual.

Last edited by bobbybanaduck; Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 10:28am.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 11:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck
indeed i was confused. the use of "R1" in the original post threw me off. R1 is not at 2B, R1 is called R1 cuz he is at 1B. disregard my entire post.
The FED book uses R1 to indicate the lead runner no matter what base the runner is on. It has always confused me, as it seems illogical.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 12:00pm
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for the duration of my posting on here i have stated that i do not give fed advice. i have never used fed rules and hopefully, as long as massachusetts' rules people keep their heads on straight, never will.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 01:33pm
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Just telling you why he used R1 at 2nd base. I hate FED rules as well, but had no choice but to enforce them for 20 years of HS baseball here in California.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 01:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherblue
LOL.... well, mine doesn't want any input. Let's see... the exact quote from my association pres was......I don't care what the [email protected]#$ you were taught at pro school, it doesn't work in HS games.... yeah that was about it. And when I offered to bring in my Evans Balk Video... the response was....can you make it four or five minutes long.....

And yes, there are a few of us beginning to talk with A.D's and start a new association, one that trains and works with it's members, not promote Charlie because he's a good ol boy and we like him.
I hope you find as we did that the timing is right for the deliverance of superior service to your Client. Drop me a PM if you would like; we have seen great and positive change in all areas of service with our Clients. Significant change that has raised wages to much higher levels, equally and fairly for the improved services rendered.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 10:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
You lost me when you used the word "Charlie." I know what it means, but pro school grads that use it are typically dismissive of those who didn't attend pro school. I once belonged to an association where one of the guys who went to pro school commented that only pro school grads should be allowed to train umpires.

If you want to create a new association, fine, but trying to change an association's mechanics just you went to pro school is a bit difficult and you should expect that people won't just roll over. Requires people skills and the ability to accept "no" once in a while. Especially when it's a mechanic recognized and accepted by the PBUC manual.

I work with several very good umpires who haven't gone through a Pro school. They have attended several outside clinics however, and it shows. They're very good and fun to work with. Don't get me wrong, I still make mistakes as we all do, going to pro school allows me to recognize it immediatly when I do. I know well before my partner asks for that beer I owe for it As for the new association, I was recruited by several other umpires in my area that are tired of all the good ol boy mantallity. Accepting no once in a while is exceptable and underestandable. Being told it don't work here isn't, especially before it's even tried or explained!
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 11:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherblue
I work with several very good umpires who haven't gone through a Pro school. They have attended several outside clinics however, and it shows. They're very good and fun to work with. Don't get me wrong, I still make mistakes as we all do, going to pro school allows me to recognize it immediatly when I do. I know well before my partner asks for that beer I owe for it As for the new association, I was recruited by several other umpires in my area that are tired of all the good ol boy mantallity. Accepting no once in a while is exceptable and underestandable. Being told it don't work here isn't, especially before it's even tried or explained!
Remember that proschool mechanics are not always the "be-all, end-all." PBUC makes several changes to mechanics when the honor grads get there.

I worked games with my son when he got home from proschool and again when he got home from PBUC. The difference in his mechanics were noticeable. Then when he got home from his first season in MiLB, the mechanics changed by the evaluators were also noticeable.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 09, 2007, 11:20pm
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You're right!! I am very aware of some of the changes. I will be attending a clinic in a couple weeks with a friend that was picked up this year by PBUC. It will be interesting to pick his brain. I had several conversations with Evans during school about some of the mechanics. The schools teach what PBUC wants taught. If you attend a Desert classic, you're taught some different mechanics there. For instance, using the point of the plate is considered an advanced mechanic taught by PBUC, that's why the schools teach 1BLX. It's a starting point, and we grow from there. With you son being picked up by PBUC, I have a strong idea of what his mechanics were initially....crisp and clean. Those that get picked up are fun to watch work. If only I was 25 years younger, I might have had a shot
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 10, 2007, 12:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherblue
The schools teach what PBUC wants taught.
As George's brother, Ira, said: "It ain't necessarily so."

1. Much of what the schools teach is designed to help them compare students against one another.

2. The two schools teach some mechanics differently. Would PBUC dictate that?

3. Jim has said that they (the schools) don't always know what PBUC wants on certain mechanics because it changes often and PBUC doesn't notify them in advance.

4. PBUC actually encourages some individualization with some mechanics. Something the schools do not, and given how they have to compare student performance, cannot.

All I'm saying is don't get so wrapped up in the concept that everything the schools teach is the only way to do somethings, or even, necessarily the best way to do somethings.

As an aside. thanks for introducing this thread within the thread. I may use some of it in the last part of my series on rookie MiLB umpires and their training. The final installment deals with those things we can take from the pros and those things that really don't matter and the attitudes amateurs have regarding both.
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Last edited by GarthB; Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 12:27am.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 10, 2007, 12:39am
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School gave me a solid foundation to work from. I worked games for five years before attending, I learned things that others officiating a great deal longer have never been taught. I also know from reading the CCA as well as attending other clinics since going to school, there are several ways to work on the field. Some with merit, some I have to raise an eyebrow at. I do agree, there are some things that truly don't matter, and some that work very well, and some that can be tweeked a tad. For nearly 30 years I worked in an ever evolving field. I learned a long time ago, you have to keep an open mind, evaluate things as they come, and most importantly don't be quick to judge. You just might miss something important if you do. Let me know when the article is done, I'd love to read it.

Oh yeah.. your welcome
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 10, 2007, 10:11am
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I tell umpires at clinics that "these mechanics are not set in stone - they are guidelines" but "if a supervisor wants you to do something, do it".
After we all umpire for a number of years we find things that work better for us than for others, and we tweak our styles accordingly. Of course, these "guidelines" have been determined by very experienced umpires over a long period of time to be the best mechanics for large groups of umpires. The great supervisors recognize that occasional tweaking makes individual umpires even better.

JJ
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 16, 2007, 01:50pm
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Thumbs up a good base ump

proper mechanic is for base ump to make both calls at 1st. and 2nd play at 3rd. if he is in the proper position. Plate ump stays home and calls any overthrow to 1st. or 3rd. and he can still see a tag if asked by partner!
Don't go looking for problems, this is not a 1st. to 3rd. situation for the plate ump. we have a runner on 2nd. base. get into position and everyone looks good.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 16, 2007, 01:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk21
proper mechanic is for base ump to make both calls at 1st. and 2nd play at 3rd. if he is in the proper position. Plate ump stays home and calls any overthrow to 1st. or 3rd. and he can still see a tag if asked by partner!
Don't go looking for problems, this is not a 1st. to 3rd. situation for the plate ump. we have a runner on 2nd. base. get into position and everyone looks good.
Or, you could have just said, "see post #2."
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 16, 2007, 07:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
Or, you could have just said, "see post #2."
Hey all,

Seems he doesn't have access to an "easy" button.

LomUmp
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