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Old Tue Mar 13, 2007, 11:28pm
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Mechanic - BU needs help from PU at 1st

no runners on. ground ball to F6. throw pulls F3 off of the bag. he attempts a swipe tag of the BR. BU does not think he got a good look at the tag attempt. how should he go about asking for help? should he ask for help prior to making any call ? ie. BU makes no call and immediately points at PU and asks "do you have a tag?"
same thing for a pulled foot?
i've gotten some differing opinions.
i was also told by a veteran D1 umpire that BU should never ask for help on a pulled foot. only a swipe tag if necessary. i believe he is wrong and asking for help on either is acceptable. i know that BU should do his best to read a bad throw and attempt to adjust his position to get a better look at a tag or pulled foot situation, but i was under the impression that it is acceptable to ask for help in either of these situations.
thoughts? thanks.
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Old Tue Mar 13, 2007, 11:56pm
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I don't mind asking on swipe tags. Point to the PU with your left hand, and ask.

As for pulled foot, the only time I'd ask is when you're on the small diamond, and in the C spot. That may be the hardest call in baseball. You're soooo far away, and if F6 pushes you to your right, you'll need a telescope. Glance over to see if your PU is lined up and looking, THEN ask.
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 12:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newump
no runners on. ground ball to F6. throw pulls F3 off of the bag. he attempts a swipe tag of the BR. BU does not think he got a good look at the tag attempt. how should he go about asking for help? should he ask for help prior to making any call ? ie. BU makes no call and immediately points at PU and asks "do you have a tag?"
same thing for a pulled foot?
i've gotten some differing opinions.
i was also told by a veteran D1 umpire that BU should never ask for help on a pulled foot. only a swipe tag if necessary. i believe he is wrong and asking for help on either is acceptable. i know that BU should do his best to read a bad throw and attempt to adjust his position to get a better look at a tag or pulled foot situation, but i was under the impression that it is acceptable to ask for help in either of these situations.
thoughts? thanks.
Good topic to cover in pregame. Some PU prefer you make a call first then ask help if needed, others don't care.
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 01:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newump
i know that BU should do his best to read a bad throw and attempt to adjust his position to get a better look at a tag or pulled foot situation, but i was under the impression that it is acceptable to ask for help in either of these situations.
thoughts? thanks.
after making whatever adjustment that you need to make to be in a better position to see the call...MAKE THE CALL. sell the he77 out of it if need be. sometimes you can make all the adjustments in the world and still not be able to see. in that case...MAKE THE CALL. you are the base umpire, and it's your call to make.

yes, the foot may have been off the bag. yes, he may have missed (got) him on the swipe tag. and, YES, it is acceptable in either of these situations to ask for help if you aren't sure. however, make whatever call you have first and then let them come out and ask you to get help. the teaching of guys to immediately go get help before making the call is just plain awful. if you've been to a jimmy's clinic you've heard this before...it's patchwork umpiring.

get in the best position you can. make any necessary adjustments. call what you see. if somebody has beef with it, let them come and talk to you about it.
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 06:36am
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Hmmmmmmmm! No runners on, you are in the "A" position.

If you use the 2SF (2 Steps Fair) mechanic, you're looking right down the throat of the swipe or the pulled foot - no need for help. If you work the 90, then you may not see the whole thing. Position is everything and you should alway strive to get into position for the play!

As far as asking for help, remember this: One play - One call! If you need help, ask for it before making the call, never make a call then saddle your partner with it! Also, if you need help over and over, you're doing something wrong! Too many youth umpires go for help way too many times. This isn't a Senate meeting that needs constant discussions and voting. It is a time to make a decision and call it!

Don't let a coach pressure you to go for help on a call. If you saw it, call it!
"You need to go for help on that, Blue!"
"I got the call, coach - if I needed help on that call, I would have gotten it before I made the call!"
"But....."
"We're done here, coach! Let's get back to the game now" Turn your back to the coach and just hustle to your position!
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 07:17am
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Ask before making the call. On a pulled foot you already know if the runner beat the throw so you could call safe if he did, so you are asking your partner to verify an out if you know the ball beat the runner. In the second case you have potential to reverse a call unless you ask before making the call.
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 07:42am
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Fishing for agreement

Quote:
Originally Posted by newump
...
i've gotten some differing opinions.
i was also told by a veteran D1 umpire ... i believe he is wrong...
You are a "new ump;" you have a question concerning mechanics; you ask a veteran D1 umpire; he gives you an answer; it conflicts with what you "know" is right as a "rookie;" so you look for an answer from a group of umpires whose backgrounds you don't know. Why? Do you want to learn from the veteran D1 umpire or find people who will validate your rookie opinions. I'd bet if he had agreed with you, you wouldn't have posed this question here. Be careful as a new learner (umpire) not to "know" the answers to the questions before you ask them.

In this situation maybe he is offering advice so that you can survive as an umpire where you work. It really is lame to ask for help on a pulled foot with no runners on. It is weak, but not lame, to ask for help on a swipe tag with no runners on, but it certainly shouldn't be a more than once or twice a decade habit.
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 08:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
Another situation to ponder. Slow hit ball up 1B line. F3 charges in, but F1 runs over and picks up ball in front of F3 and race is on to 1B. You are in "C" position and moving over to get your position and getting set to make what is going to be a close call. About this time F3 starts running back towards the bag also and blocks your view of the base. You make your call based on what you thought you thought the play was going to be, but wasn't sure because you got blocked off by F3. Would you allow for an appeal to your partner? Would you just eat the call thinking I got it right to the best of my ability under the circumstances? Is this call even an appeal play at all?
Since I'm in 'C', there must be R2. Maybe PU is coming over to cover 3rd, maybe not. No matter, in this sitch I'd sell it, sell it, sell it.
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Last edited by Rcichon; Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 08:52am.
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 10:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcarilli
You are a "new ump;" you have a question concerning mechanics; you ask a veteran D1 umpire; he gives you an answer; it conflicts with what you "know" is right as a "rookie;" so you look for an answer from a group of umpires whose backgrounds you don't know. Why? Do you want to learn from the veteran D1 umpire or find people who will validate your rookie opinions. I'd bet if he had agreed with you, you wouldn't have posed this question here. Be careful as a new learner (umpire) not to "know" the answers to the questions before you ask them.

In this situation maybe he is offering advice so that you can survive as an umpire where you work. It really is lame to ask for help on a pulled foot with no runners on. It is weak, but not lame, to ask for help on a swipe tag with no runners on, but it certainly shouldn't be a more than once or twice a decade habit.
I agree with your analysis if the D1 dude was speaking only to bases empty. However, if he was speaking in more general terms then I don't fault newump for trying to get a wider spectrum of opinions. Perhaps he was told something different at his association and he is now conflicted.
It may be this D1s style to never get help on a pulled foot, maybe he's only done 3 man the past few years and forgets from whence he came, much less opportunity to need help in 3 man so his style has evolved accordingly, but going for help when you're in b or c is not wrong. I think it is great for a new umpire to get a lot of varied opinions on issues like this, mechanics, style, preferences etc. By listening and learning from many, it is much easier to develop a style that fits your own personality.
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 10:26am
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by newump
no runners on. ground ball to F6. throw pulls F3 off of the bag. he attempts a swipe tag of the BR. BU does not think he got a good look at the tag attempt. how should he go about asking for help? should he ask for help prior to making any call ? ie. BU makes no call and immediately points at PU and asks "do you have a tag?"
same thing for a pulled foot?
i've gotten some differing opinions.
i was also told by a veteran D1 umpire that BU should never ask for help on a pulled foot. only a swipe tag if necessary. i believe he is wrong and asking for help on either is acceptable. i know that BU should do his best to read a bad throw and attempt to adjust his position to get a better look at a tag or pulled foot situation, but i was under the impression that it is acceptable to ask for help in either of these situations.
thoughts? thanks.
Perhaps the aforementioned could be a nice topic for one of the staff writers (Probably Papa C who umpired when Abe Lincoln was President - Just kidding Papa C)

The topic could be the evolution of the 2 person mechancis as they have changed over the years.

When I first started the rule of thumb was this:

The PU duties were as the name indicated . The Plate area only. The base Umpire had all bases EXCEPT home plate.

We were told what calls were ours and what calls were the PU's. if we kicked it we kicked it. Learn and move on.

Over the years the PU has acquired more and more responsibilities relative to the bases.

At one time there was a huge debate on when calls could be changed. Papa C listed his infamous FAB V on when calls could be legally changed. That list is probably out dated as there is a new thinking even in the PROS.

The professional approach along with the Collegiate approach has changed and now there is big movement on "getting the call right at all costs".

We see our bretheran at the major league level huddling (ala Football Officials) more so then in the past. The main reason has been TV with their SUPER SLO-MO angles and let's face it, the networks "eat-it-up" when they catch an umpire kicking a call and it becomes a major highlight.

The REAL answer lies in: What is the recommended mechanic in the association in which you work. That's what i would follow:

In a nutshell the prescibed mechanic is to go to your partner WITHOUT being asked. In another words you simply say to your partner

"Carl did he get him" or "Carl did he have the bag" but the call is still YOURS. You are simply asking for add'l info which you are unsure of.

However, do not get in the habit of using the PU as a "crutch" because depending upion the situation he/she might not be able to assist you. Also, you might be doing a game with Old Smitty" who has the dish and if you point to him you might get that "Shrugged shoulder" look.

Pete Booth
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 11:40am
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This is what i learned at a clinic from a former minor league umpire:

1) If you're in A- you shouldn't go for help since you have a good enough angle to see a pulled foot or swipe tag yourself.

2) Know your PU. If he's the type of guy that won't give you information, and you go ask him, and you don't change your call, you BOTH look bad then if the call was fairly obvious.

But if your PU was in good position to see the pulled foot/swipe tag AND you know he'll give you information, go ahead and ask, but you really shouldn't.
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 12:02pm
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Add "adjust" to "pause, read and react" and you won't need to ask for help.
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 01:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newump
no runners on. ground ball to F6. throw pulls F3 off of the bag. he attempts a swipe tag of the BR. BU does not think he got a good look at the tag attempt. how should he go about asking for help? should he ask for help prior to making any call ? ie. BU makes no call and immediately points at PU and asks "do you have a tag?"
same thing for a pulled foot?
i've gotten some differing opinions.
i was also told by a veteran D1 umpire that BU should never ask for help on a pulled foot. only a swipe tag if necessary. i believe he is wrong and asking for help on either is acceptable. i know that BU should do his best to read a bad throw and attempt to adjust his position to get a better look at a tag or pulled foot situation, but i was under the impression that it is acceptable to ask for help in either of these situations.
thoughts? thanks.
A swipe tag happens because of a bad throw.

Too many umpires get a 90 degree angle and then don't bother reading the throw and adjusting to a bad throw.

Once you read a bad throw, step and lean to get the look you need.
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 01:41pm
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Just my penny's worth. Listen to OZZY!! He's got it right. Your talking TWO man mechanics with NO runners on. If your in the middle your WRONG. No discussion on that one. NO runner on, your in A period. Well no, I'm wrong there. If your older and can't run a 40 in 20 seconds flat, then work in the middle or seek out Little League not High School or D1 ball. Otherwise, you should be in A. Ozzy is right about working two steps in vs. the 90 theory. I was taught 90, experinece shows me two maybe three steps gives me a better angle on the pulled foot. The D1 guy as you put it, has experience you don't. If you don't want to learn, don't ask. If you ask, listen to what is said. Use your ability to reason and formulate an answer for yourself, if it is good or bad info. Add that to what you have READ, not HEARD. Just because someone has 20 years of Officiating, DOESN'T mean he is right. It just means he's been out there for 20 years. My guess, OZZY has been to school. Have you??
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Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 08:29pm
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2SF is a lazy umpires mechanic! (Hint - do NOT get Jim Evans started on this topic unless you have a long to listen).

Get out as close to 90 degrees to the throws as you can. A lean/step should get the angle to make this call with very little exception.

The problem here comes from a pressure situation that forces BU into foul territory where both may be screened.

As the old saying goes - Sometimes you just have to umpire

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900
Hmmmmmmmm! No runners on, you are in the "A" position.

If you use the 2SF (2 Steps Fair) mechanic, you're looking right down the throat of the swipe or the pulled foot - no need for help. If you work the 90°, then you may not see the whole thing. Position is everything and you should alway strive to get into position for the play!

As far as asking for help, remember this: One play - One call! If you need help, ask for it before making the call, never make a call then saddle your partner with it! Also, if you need help over and over, you're doing something wrong! Too many youth umpires go for help way too many times. This isn't a Senate meeting that needs constant discussions and voting. It is a time to make a decision and call it!

Don't let a coach pressure you to go for help on a call. If you saw it, call it!
"You need to go for help on that, Blue!"
"I got the call, coach - if I needed help on that call, I would have gotten it before I made the call!"
"But....."
"We're done here, coach! Let's get back to the game now" Turn your back to the coach and just hustle to your position!

Last edited by socalblue1; Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 03:51am.
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