Mechanic - BU needs help from PU at 1st

[newump]

no runners on. ground ball to F6. throw pulls F3 off of the bag. he attempts a swipe tag of the BR. BU does not think he got a good look at the tag attempt. how should he go about asking for help? should he ask for help prior to making any call ? ie. BU makes no call and immediately points at PU and asks "do you have a tag?"
same thing for a pulled foot?
i've gotten some differing opinions.
i was also told by a veteran D1 umpire that BU should never ask for help on a pulled foot. only a swipe tag if necessary. i believe he is wrong and asking for help on either is acceptable. i know that BU should do his best to read a bad throw and attempt to adjust his position to get a better look at a tag or pulled foot situation, but i was under the impression that it is acceptable to ask for help in either of these situations.
thoughts? thanks.

[kylejt]

I don't mind asking on swipe tags. Point to the PU with your left hand, and ask.

As for pulled foot, the only time I'd ask is when you're on the small diamond, and in the C spot. That may be the hardest call in baseball. You're soooo far away, and if F6 pushes you to your right, you'll need a telescope. Glance over to see if your PU is lined up and looking, THEN ask.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by newump

no runners on. ground ball to F6. throw pulls F3 off of the bag. he attempts a swipe tag of the BR. BU does not think he got a good look at the tag attempt. how should he go about asking for help? should he ask for help prior to making any call ? ie. BU makes no call and immediately points at PU and asks "do you have a tag?"
same thing for a pulled foot?
i've gotten some differing opinions.
i was also told by a veteran D1 umpire that BU should never ask for help on a pulled foot. only a swipe tag if necessary. i believe he is wrong and asking for help on either is acceptable. i know that BU should do his best to read a bad throw and attempt to adjust his position to get a better look at a tag or pulled foot situation, but i was under the impression that it is acceptable to ask for help in either of these situations.
thoughts? thanks.

Good topic to cover in pregame. Some PU prefer you make a call first then ask help if needed, others don't care.

[Rcichon]

Originally Posted by PWL

Another situation to ponder. Slow hit ball up 1B line. F3 charges in, but F1 runs over and picks up ball in front of F3 and race is on to 1B. You are in "C" position and moving over to get your position and getting set to make what is going to be a close call. About this time F3 starts running back towards the bag also and blocks your view of the base. You make your call based on what you thought you thought the play was going to be, but wasn't sure because you got blocked off by F3. Would you allow for an appeal to your partner? Would you just eat the call thinking I got it right to the best of my ability under the circumstances? Is this call even an appeal play at all?

Since I'm in 'C', there must be R2. Maybe PU is coming over to cover 3rd, maybe not. No matter, in this sitch I'd sell it, sell it, sell it.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by newump

i know that BU should do his best to read a bad throw and attempt to adjust his position to get a better look at a tag or pulled foot situation, but i was under the impression that it is acceptable to ask for help in either of these situations.
thoughts? thanks.

after making whatever adjustment that you need to make to be in a better position to see the call...MAKE THE CALL. sell the he77 out of it if need be. sometimes you can make all the adjustments in the world and still not be able to see. in that case...MAKE THE CALL. you are the base umpire, and it's your call to make.

yes, the foot may have been off the bag. yes, he may have missed (got) him on the swipe tag. and, YES, it is acceptable in either of these situations to ask for help if you aren't sure. however, make whatever call you have first and then let them come out and ask you to get help. the teaching of guys to immediately go get help before making the call is just plain awful. if you've been to a jimmy's clinic you've heard this before...it's patchwork umpiring.

get in the best position you can. make any necessary adjustments. call what you see. if somebody has beef with it, let them come and talk to you about it.

[ozzy6900]

Hmmmmmmmm! No runners on, you are in the "A" position.

If you use the 2SF (2 Steps Fair) mechanic, you're looking right down the throat of the swipe or the pulled foot - no need for help. If you work the 90°, then you may not see the whole thing. Position is everything and you should alway strive to get into position for the play!

As far as asking for help, remember this: One play - One call! If you need help, ask for it before making the call, never make a call then saddle your partner with it! Also, if you need help over and over, you're doing something wrong! Too many youth umpires go for help way too many times. This isn't a Senate meeting that needs constant discussions and voting. It is a time to make a decision and call it!

Don't let a coach pressure you to go for help on a call. If you saw it, call it!
"You need to go for help on that, Blue!"
"I got the call, coach - if I needed help on that call, I would have gotten it before I made the call!"
"But....."
"We're done here, coach! Let's get back to the game now" Turn your back to the coach and just hustle to your position!

[DG]

Ask before making the call. On a pulled foot you already know if the runner beat the throw so you could call safe if he did, so you are asking your partner to verify an out if you know the ball beat the runner. In the second case you have potential to reverse a call unless you ask before making the call.

[socalblue1]

2SF is a lazy umpires mechanic! (Hint - do NOT get Jim Evans started on this topic unless you have a long to listen).

Get out as close to 90 degrees to the throws as you can. A lean/step should get the angle to make this call with very little exception.

The problem here comes from a pressure situation that forces BU into foul territory where both may be screened.

As the old saying goes - Sometimes you just have to umpire

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Hmmmmmmmm! No runners on, you are in the "A" position.

If you use the 2SF (2 Steps Fair) mechanic, you're looking right down the throat of the swipe or the pulled foot - no need for help. If you work the 90°, then you may not see the whole thing. Position is everything and you should alway strive to get into position for the play!

As far as asking for help, remember this: One play - One call! If you need help, ask for it before making the call, never make a call then saddle your partner with it! Also, if you need help over and over, you're doing something wrong! Too many youth umpires go for help way too many times. This isn't a Senate meeting that needs constant discussions and voting. It is a time to make a decision and call it!

Don't let a coach pressure you to go for help on a call. If you saw it, call it!
"You need to go for help on that, Blue!"
"I got the call, coach - if I needed help on that call, I would have gotten it before I made the call!"
"But....."
"We're done here, coach! Let's get back to the game now" Turn your back to the coach and just hustle to your position!

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

2SF is a lazy umpires mechanic! (Hint - do NOT get Jim Evans started on this topic unless you have a long to listen).

You know, I love guys like you. You hear something from one person and think that it is a revelation from Mt. Sinai! Well, I don't care what Evans says, I am not an MLB umpire and at my age, I don't think I will become one. If you went to his school, that is wonderful! Just try and remember, Evans is not the "final" word in umpiring!

That said, NCAA was using this mechanic for many years and it cut down on many of those "questionable" calls. If you think it's a lazy way to umpire, that's fine. But at 54 years of age and arthritis setting in, I still make the calls and bust to the infield almost as fast as the young ones! I teach this mechanic along with the 90° because it resolves many of the problems related to pressure from F4 - you do not need to go into foul territory to make a pressure call. The advantage is you can still bust in if needed there-by saving wear and tear on your plate man.

Lazy, son, you don't know what you are talking about so don't give me that "lazy" crap!

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by PWL

I like to go 45 degrees on balls hit to right side and 90 degrees on balls hit to the left side. I'm also about 15' to 18' from the bag. I agree two steps is not enough (lazy). Get set and track the ball with my eyes and head set. Pause, read, react.

I like to see the call, and know for sure I have the out before I ask my partner if F3 had his foot on the bag.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by PWL

Well doggies now, if the runners safe you sure as to darn tootin' don't need to be worrying none about no pulled foot now do ya', Sonny?

You need help in "A" with a pulled foot? If you can't get your calls in "A", I bet you can't even get a check swing call right...........

Thats the same as PU judging the batter offered but still going to BU for his opinion.
I guess you missed the sarcasm.

[David B]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

Thats the same as PU judging the batter offered but still going to BU for his opinion.
I guess you missed the sarcasm.

I'm not following this at all; however, just for those that might be lurking ... if PU judges an offer no need to ask - make the call (strike)!

Now if I'm blocked, different story, but I'm asking because I didn't see it not because I have a question as to whether he swung or not.

Making the call at first is the BU's call all the way - make the call (out or safe). No need to ask anyone.

Pulled foot, only if BU is in the infield and always ask before making a call (however, as has been noted, a good BU is hustling and won't need any help because he sees the pulled foot).

Thanks
David

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by newump

...
i've gotten some differing opinions.
i was also told by a veteran D1 umpire ... i believe he is wrong...

You are a "new ump;" you have a question concerning mechanics; you ask a veteran D1 umpire; he gives you an answer; it conflicts with what you "know" is right as a "rookie;" so you look for an answer from a group of umpires whose backgrounds you don't know. Why? Do you want to learn from the veteran D1 umpire or find people who will validate your rookie opinions. I'd bet if he had agreed with you, you wouldn't have posed this question here. Be careful as a new learner (umpire) not to "know" the answers to the questions before you ask them.

In this situation maybe he is offering advice so that you can survive as an umpire where you work. It really is lame to ask for help on a pulled foot with no runners on. It is weak, but not lame, to ask for help on a swipe tag with no runners on, but it certainly shouldn't be a more than once or twice a decade habit.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by tcarilli

You are a "new ump;" you have a question concerning mechanics; you ask a veteran D1 umpire; he gives you an answer; it conflicts with what you "know" is right as a "rookie;" so you look for an answer from a group of umpires whose backgrounds you don't know. Why? Do you want to learn from the veteran D1 umpire or find people who will validate your rookie opinions. I'd bet if he had agreed with you, you wouldn't have posed this question here. Be careful as a new learner (umpire) not to "know" the answers to the questions before you ask them.

In this situation maybe he is offering advice so that you can survive as an umpire where you work. It really is lame to ask for help on a pulled foot with no runners on. It is weak, but not lame, to ask for help on a swipe tag with no runners on, but it certainly shouldn't be a more than once or twice a decade habit.

I agree with your analysis if the D1 dude was speaking only to bases empty. However, if he was speaking in more general terms then I don't fault newump for trying to get a wider spectrum of opinions. Perhaps he was told something different at his association and he is now conflicted.
It may be this D1s style to never get help on a pulled foot, maybe he's only done 3 man the past few years and forgets from whence he came, much less opportunity to need help in 3 man so his style has evolved accordingly, but going for help when you're in b or c is not wrong. I think it is great for a new umpire to get a lot of varied opinions on issues like this, mechanics, style, preferences etc. By listening and learning from many, it is much easier to develop a style that fits your own personality.

[PeteBooth]

Perhaps the aforementioned could be a nice topic for one of the staff writers (Probably Papa C who umpired when Abe Lincoln was President - Just kidding Papa C)

The topic could be the evolution of the 2 person mechancis as they have changed over the years.

When I first started the rule of thumb was this:

The PU duties were as the name indicated . The Plate area only. The base Umpire had all bases EXCEPT home plate.

We were told what calls were ours and what calls were the PU's. if we kicked it we kicked it. Learn and move on.

Over the years the PU has acquired more and more responsibilities relative to the bases.

At one time there was a huge debate on when calls could be changed. Papa C listed his infamous FAB V on when calls could be legally changed. That list is probably out dated as there is a new thinking even in the PROS.

The professional approach along with the Collegiate approach has changed and now there is big movement on "getting the call right at all costs".

We see our bretheran at the major league level huddling (ala Football Officials) more so then in the past. The main reason has been TV with their SUPER SLO-MO angles and let's face it, the networks "eat-it-up" when they catch an umpire kicking a call and it becomes a major highlight.

The REAL answer lies in: What is the recommended mechanic in the association in which you work. That's what i would follow:

In a nutshell the prescibed mechanic is to go to your partner WITHOUT being asked. In another words you simply say to your partner

"Carl did he get him" or "Carl did he have the bag" but the call is still YOURS. You are simply asking for add'l info which you are unsure of.

However, do not get in the habit of using the PU as a "crutch" because depending upion the situation he/she might not be able to assist you. Also, you might be doing a game with Old Smitty" who has the dish and if you point to him you might get that "Shrugged shoulder" look.

Pete Booth