The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 12:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 301
Would you Eject??

Had a strange sort of incident on the weekend, not sure when my partner should have ejected, and sort of if??

Partners strike zone not the best but mostly consistent. Early in count middle of the game, low pitch, probably too low but Called a strike. Partner definatly had a low zone. The 3rd base coach (HEAD COACH) says loud enough for me to hear in A, "That is not a strike!!!, come on!!" partner glares but nothing more, Coach continues to ramble but not much said.

The on what turns out to be the last batter of the game a similar but Better pitch is also called a strike to start the batter. Coach says the same thing again loud, and my partner tosses him for arguing Balls and Strikes.

My question is when or would you have tossed him. Personally my thought was after the first pitch, however, my partner did tell me he felt he missed that one, so he didn't eject. I agree with his stance on that point. My partner also felt the other pitch was one he had called all game. Would this change your decision.

Personally I don't like him using the word Strike, I think there are so many ways for him to express his displeasure that would not have been such an obvious arguing Balls and Strikes.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 12:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 8
I don't think I would have ejected at all. I believe the rule book says that a coach can be ejected if he leaves his position to argue balls and strikes. I think a warning is required here, especially if it's late in the game.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 12:56pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,107
i wouldnt have an ejection here either. he did it 99% of the game and didnt appear to warrant an ejection then, so why with 2 minutes left to go would you toss him?
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 12:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
I think I'd have left it alone too.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 01:24pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Lakeside, California
Posts: 6,724
No ejection here either. If the coach had been ragging on my zone repeatedly, he would be warned to "stay off my strike zone." Then, if he did not heed the warning, he would be ejected at that time. Just disagreeing with a couple of pitches from the coaches box does not warrant an ejection.
__________________
Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 01:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kalamazoo, MI. 49009
Posts: 18
Send a message via Yahoo to oneonone
When to draw a hard line??

Hello,

I have a problem that is similar but on a greater level. I am a volunteer umpire with only 6 seasons worth of experience. I currently find myself in a Little League (FED rules) filled with coaches that feel that it is one of the "rights" of coaching to comment on any balls and strikes calls. I have pointed out that In their Little League rule books they will find rule 4.06(2) that prohibits them from using any language that makes reference to or reflects on umpires..players..other coaches. When I informed the local boards vice president of Softball (who also is a coach that advocates the right of coaches to openly question the balls and strikes), that violating this rule will be enforced with those penalties as directed by the official rule book. He then in formed me that I was no longer welcome to volunteer as an umpire.

I will tell you that this league suffers from a lack of volunteer umpires. No big surprise huh? Therefore most of the home games around here (district 15, Schoolcraft MI.) are umpired by a parent who has been drafted off the grass before the game! It will be my goal to bring organization and support structures into place that will foster a recruiting program for umpires, educational clinics, and above all, a Little League home environment that will nurture new umpires as they grow and learn and possible make mistakes.

This season I have only Dads at my training disposal and they have assured me that they have no interest in being embarrassed throughout a game by the coaches running commentary. I have instructed them that the rules support a warning then an ejection for commenting on their balls and strikes calls. It isn't going win them popularity contests but the coaches will soon learn of the "rights" the do and don't have. I know that I am drawing a hard line, but when faced with a "Wild West" league whose board allows the coaches to interpret that rules as they wish, is there any other way deal with this.

I apologize for the length of my post. I don't wish to be like the other umpires in this area who came before me and just threw up there hands and walked away. Any guidance from you seasoned umpires out there would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You in advance
Mike Devenney
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 02:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 32
Send a message via AIM to NothernVA_Ump Send a message via Yahoo to NothernVA_Ump
To throw out or not to throw out????

I had a similar situtation happen the first game of Little Leauge this year. I had the assistant Manager yell from the dugout to his pitcher that, "his pitch was perfect, the umpire is cutting the plate in half on you." I called time and went to the dugout and the manager met me half way and I told him that is the last word about balls and strikes I am going to tolerate from his side.

If any of the managers (parents) would of said another word about balls and strikes I would of tossed them without hesitation.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 02:47pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Lakeside, California
Posts: 6,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneonone
Hello,

I have a problem that is similar but on a greater level. I am a volunteer umpire with only 6 seasons worth of experience. I currently find myself in a Little League (FED rules) filled with coaches that feel that it is one of the "rights" of coaching to comment on any balls and strikes calls. I have pointed out that In their Little League rule books they will find rule 4.06(2) that prohibits them from using any language that makes reference to or reflects on umpires..players..other coaches. When I informed the local boards vice president of Softball (who also is a coach that advocates the right of coaches to openly question the balls and strikes), that violating this rule will be enforced with those penalties as directed by the official rule book. He then in formed me that I was no longer welcome to volunteer as an umpire.

I will tell you that this league suffers from a lack of volunteer umpires. No big surprise huh? Therefore most of the home games around here (district 15, Schoolcraft MI.) are umpired by a parent who has been drafted off the grass before the game! It will be my goal to bring organization and support structures into place that will foster a recruiting program for umpires, educational clinics, and above all, a Little League home environment that will nurture new umpires as they grow and learn and possible make mistakes.

This season I have only Dads at my training disposal and they have assured me that they have no interest in being embarrassed throughout a game by the coaches running commentary. I have instructed them that the rules support a warning then an ejection for commenting on their balls and strikes calls. It isn't going win them popularity contests but the coaches will soon learn of the "rights" the do and don't have. I know that I am drawing a hard line, but when faced with a "Wild West" league whose board allows the coaches to interpret that rules as they wish, is there any other way deal with this.

I apologize for the length of my post. I don't wish to be like the other umpires in this area who came before me and just threw up there hands and walked away. Any guidance from you seasoned umpires out there would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You in advance
Mike Devenney
Mike,

First, Little League rules are based on OBR rules, not FED rules, which govern most High School ball.

Secondly, unless they are using foul language when jumping on your strikezone, then they haven't violated Rule 4.06(a)(2), which is intended for use when the manager, player, substitute, coach, trainer or batboy uses foul language and aims it personally at anyone at the ballpark.

The rule you want is Rule 9.02(a) which states that any judgment call you make shall not be objected to. If they get on your strike zone, get it shut down right away by warning the offending party to stay off your strike zone. Any further comments about judgment calls, you eject the offender from the game.

As far as not getting cooperation from the league vice-president, where is the president? It is his responsibility to instruct the coaches as to the absolute power of the umpire, and that coaches do not have the right to ride roughshod over the umpires. They need to no that they will be ejected from games for persistent arguing, and that it will include a one-game suspension as well.
__________________
Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 03:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,577
There's a clear recourse. Quit volunteering - your park is making it crystal that they will not support you on this, they will back the coaches' behavior.

Your 'dads from the stands' seem to have the correct perspective on this.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 03:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 26
Seems pretty easy to me: You have 6 years experience, tell the LL guys "See ya later!" Find out who runs your HS chapter, sign up, pay some dues and start moving up the food chain.

BTW--there are guys in AA with less than 6 years of experience
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 03:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 477
Each umpire has his own level of crap that they will take. Different umpires have different things that hate more than others.

As for me I hate it when a coach complains and starts waving his arms and getting overly animated. If he makes a comment I usually just let it slide off but if he keeps making comments then he'll have a problem.

I have ejected only 1 coach in 100+ games this season and it happened this past Saturday in a Pony League Mustang Div (10yo) game. It was the first little guy ball game that I have worked this season (helping a friend). It was interesting!
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 03:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,491
Send a message via AIM to RPatrino Send a message via Yahoo to RPatrino
The problem is, if you don't immediately stop the chirping about your strike zone, then you pretty much tell both teams that they can do it for the whole game. It is very tough to regain control once you lose it.

I don't mind a civil discussion about almost any subject on the field. But I insist that the discussion be one on one, and be done respectfully and quietly. I don't tolerate yelling from dugouts or coaching boxes. I cover this in my pre-game with the head coach's.

Bob P.
__________________
Bob P.

-----------------------
We are stewards of baseball. Our customers aren't schools or coaches or conferences. Our customer is the game itself.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 03:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 170
Different blues, different leagues, different cultures

I agree with Just, who talked about each umpire having his own level of crap he will put up with. I also factor in the league, the level of ball and, honestly, the coach. If I have a coach I know to be a whiner, I am much quicker on the trigger for a warning (no EJs in 5 years). On the other hand, if it's a coach who rarely squawks, if he hollers, I am more likely to listen and give him some slack.

Grumbling about one or two pitches, over the course of a game, is not grounds for an ejection in any league I work (13 year-old Babe Ruth to MSBL and college scrimmages).

"Arguing" in my mind is a comment about my zone over the course of the game or any one yell about any one pitch. When the coach has crossed my line, I say something to the effect of "Balls and strikes, Coach. This is your warning." After that, if he barks, he knows he has done so at his peril. This applies to any judgment call.

To the umpire who got uninvited for standing up for yourself: good riddance to that league for you. A strong association can take care of that business. Around here, we are short umpires, so we have some more of the power on our side in this equation. Don't go crazy and forget that the game is not about you (or the coaches and parents, for that matter)- it's about the kids. But if all umpires draw a line and tell the leagues this is your limit, the league will either adapt or find themselves without blues.

Strikes and outs!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 05:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 90
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
Each umpire has his own level of crap that they will take. Different umpires have different things that hate more than others.

As for me I hate it when a coach complains and starts waving his arms and getting overly animated. If he makes a comment I usually just let it slide off but if he keeps making comments then he'll have a problem.

I have ejected only 1 coach in 100+ games this season and it happened this past Saturday in a Pony League Mustang Div (10yo) game. It was the first little guy ball game that I have worked this season (helping a friend). It was interesting!

UMPIRES DO NOT GET PAID TO TAKE CRAP- ANY CRAP- ANY AMOUNT- PERIOD!

having said that...(and before everyone goes ape over that statement all by itself)

We as umpires have more than one tool in our chest. Especially as it pertains to balls and strikes from the dugouts or coaches boxes. My first reaction to his first outburst might be just to note who said it but not even acknowledge it (ignore). I took action, just not one everyone can see. If he keeps going (which they almost always will), i will acknowledge the second one (i.e. looking in his direction- if he says something then i may give a short response something like "that's a good pitch, a strike all day today"). Then I go back to work (I'm giving him every opportunity to shut up). If he pops of again, that's the last one: "hey!, that's enough. we're not gonna talk about pitches!" mask off and giving him the stop sign. Then it's up to him, next comment at all about pitches or my zone he just dumped himself. Obviously there may be instances when his actions or comments accelerate this process, that is the judgment we get paid the big bucks for. Balls strikes should be a fairly easy one to deal with in most cases without constricting him from talking at all and without me having to take any crap off of him without action. One HUGE thing to understand with ejections is (IMHO) that we have other tools in our chest, and we shouldn't be ejecting anyone because he "pissed me off" or "i hate it when they do _____" There are reasons to get run and then there are things that we don't like but aren't a reason to get run. It is part of our job not to make any decision on the field out of emotion or personal feelings one way or the other. An ejection should not be the result of being "fed up". If you are fed up, why didn't you handle it before you got "fed up"? Food for Thought.
__________________
"Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. "

-Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 15, 2006, 05:52pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 301
Great responses guys!

I think in part I agree, it was simply the verbage he used that blew me away. "That IS NOT a STIRKE!" Not your regular , ooooh or Ahhhh Or Come on. or that was low, or anything. It was the use of the word Strike that shocked me. I agree a firmer warning should have been made the first time, but I'm 99% sure this coach understood the stare.

Also this coach is one of those Arrogant kind. He enjoyed strooling out to talk to pitcher's with out calling for time, and then strooling back. In canada this is a huge rarity. He then came out to argue a call (mine) and was trying to get time and almost walked on fair territory before the play was finished. ( side note, he has to interfere in some way for any real penalty to be inforced were he oin the field of play, correct?) Note the argue was calm and civil. but he was annoying in many ways. So I think that added to the quick toss but I don't know. I know his assistant commented to me that he hates "when {the coach} does this Crap".

Oh well thanks for the advice it is stored away for next time.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
To eject ot not to eject iebrf14 Football 4 Mon Oct 31, 2005 07:54pm
Do You Eject? SMEngmann Basketball 14 Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:33pm
When to eject? wobster Baseball 16 Fri Aug 13, 2004 04:01pm
eject or not? jumpmaster Baseball 15 Tue May 25, 2004 11:23pm
When to eject someone umpguy2190 Baseball 6 Fri Apr 30, 2004 05:53pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:34am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1