When to eject?

[wobster]

Since there seemed to be some disagreement with my article on game control, (I only read the first post, and didn't get to check it again before it was shut down) when do you guys eject a coach? Swearing, name calling, questioning judgment, walking onto field? I have never had to eject a coach, but I have not been jumped on too hard by any coach.

Where do you draw the line?

BTW: This is not meant as an insult, or anything to start a flame war, I am curious where other umpires draw the line.

[orioles35]

Swearing or other insults, immediately. When the coach is displaying such behavior where you feel it is appropriate to eject him in the name of keeping control of the game, do so at your discretion.

I've had ejections where a coach was on the bench and did the old 'fake sneeze, say 'Bulls***' from Animal House. Then the same guy who walked down 3/4 of the way from the coaches box, called his batter over, then loudly displayed for him where MY strike zone supposedly was and asked the batter not to swing at a pitch around mid-calf. Both of those were situations that I felt needed an ejection.

[Blue37]

I work for five associations covering everything from t-ball (no, I have never worked with Rut) to college (no, I have never worked with Windy or Peter).

The lower the level, the less tolerent I am. A college coach can get away with much more than a t-ball coach. Profanity as an example. A college coach comes out and yells "What the hell were you looking at?" I ignore that and we have a conversation. If a high school coach yells the same thing, I say "I'm sorry coach, I must have misheard you." Most of them get the clue and rephrase the question. Those that do not, and loudly repeat the question word for word are ejected. Anything under high school will not get a second chance. On any level, if it not yelled and is just said and no one else heard, I will not eject.

My Associations also determine what I tolerate. If my assignor tells me to penalize certain behavior with an ejection, you can bet I do it if I want games. If he tells me to allow certain behavior I would not normally allow, I either allow it or I move on to another Association.

There are two things that are hot buttons with me: One is questioning my integrity, and the other is getting personal. If a coach accuses me of favoritism, he needs to be very careful with his next words. Likewise, when he moves away from the call and begins discussing me, he is on thin ice. He can complain about a call all he wants (That call was terrible!), but he needs to stay away from the word "you" (You are terrible!).

JMO

[WindyCityBlue]

A long time ago, I was taught to eject a coach or player if his behavior was affecting the game or influencing it a manner that was negative. That sounds like a lot of fluff, but makes sense when you think of examples. Earl Weaver kicking dirt on the plate or at an umpire...Kerry Wood screaming about missed pitches as he's taken from a game...Lou Piniella dislodging and throwing a base...Gaylord Perry getting caught defacing a ball...all obvious examples.

I have pretty thick skin when it comes to name calling on the ball field. I usually have to have a coach direct an F-bomb at me or my partner to get my attention. Players get very little tolerance, though. I've run guys for saying, "No way I'm out, that's bullsh*t". We covered the "JUST WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE LANGUAGE" debate several months ago and it turned into a flame war. I've had born again partners that don't like hearing "God damn", but understand that we all have our triggers. The coaches he deals with know his style and the athletes behave accordingly.

Ejecting a contestant is always a last resort and you should be cognizant of the fact that you may have had a hand in it. Baiting/entrapping, thin skin or a kicked call are all things that will come back and haunt you. Having a quick trigger is a tougher rep to shake than being tolerant of unacceptable behavior. Think about why is this player/coach acting this way. Is it 1-0 and the whacker at first just went against him? Did you just miss a balk in the same game? Is the guy just an a-hole and forgets that you aren't under his control? I give a little more room when a guy is just blowing steam and not swearing. (You know the guy, he's down 22-3 and has a tee time.) That said, I've bounced guys for arguing balls and strikes from the dugout and they're gone before their cleats hit the dirt.

The parents among us recognize the times when we stop tolerating inappropriate behavior and crack down. If you are a hard-***, you'll be feared. If you let kids walk all over you, you'll be ostracized. Same thing on the field.
Just like strike zones, they'll have to adjust since each of us has a different tolerance. Ejections are just another judgement call.

[cbfoulds]

Yeah, I noticed that thread was missing: did our illustrious moderator/censor step in, or did the originator delete the thread?

Anyway: I read your article; I didn't find it particularly "weak", nor find much to argue with, although I suspect you put up with more crap from coaches and players than I do, esp. in summer ball. In my part of the world, most coaches below the HS varsity level are clueless; and during the summer, some Legion teams seem to select specially for lousy sportsmanship and crybabies; so the "most of the time it's the umpire's fault" does not really apply.

As far as "where do I draw the line?":

Swearing? At me/ partner? You're done.

Name Calling? Depends, but most likely calling me anything other than "Blue", "Ump", or the name I came into this world with, and you head for the bus.

Questioning judgment? Depends again, on who and how and how much. Like you, I use and recomend the "Coach, this is what I saw" approach; and a variation: "Coach, what did YOU see?" Also been known to say: "Coach, that's a judgment call. You aren't out here to argue about a judgment call, are you?" Haven't had one of 'em bite yet. ["Yes, I am!", is a free pass to the parking lot. Award for best answer by a coach: "I want to, but I'm not going to!" -OK by me Coach, lets play ball, now.] Head coaches who keep it civil and quiet get some latitude to "argue", even about judgment. Assistant Coaches [ex. possibly the base Coach, when I call his runner out] get very little and players get none. [A wise (or at least witty) man once wrote, "I do not argue BB with children"]

Walking on the field? Depends cubed: who, when/ what/ why, & how. I had a defensive asst. coach come blasting out onto the field from 1B dugout to argue w/ me about a call at 3rd. Before he could open his mouth, I asked if he got time from PU to come onto the field? When he answered no, I ordered him back into his dugout; when he started in on his complaint about my call, I repeated the order to get off the field, now. With the next word out of his mouth [not having turned to leave the field], I ejected him.
Head Coach, "Time, Blue" while walking out to and over the foul line, same complaint: probably no EJ.

Until this year, I routinely had as many EJs in summer ball as the rest of my Assn. put together; largely because I take NO crap in youth ball. Without knowing it, I adopted HHH's mantra: "Big zone, short fuse: shut up and swing the bat". Once I read Peter's articles on the subject, I even felt good while doing it! Couple of years of that, and I GET no crap in youth ball - helps my concentration and consistency greatly. This year, only 1 EJ the whole year - nothing else happened that ever came close. I doubt that will continue, but it was different enough this year that I was more pissed at the guy I tossed [nearly my last summer game] for "ruining" my "personal record", than I was annoyed about what he did to get dumped.

[Edited by cbfoulds on Aug 11th, 2004 at 03:52 PM]

[GarthB]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

Wobster;

OK, since you asked.

I gather from reading your article on the paid part of the site that you work youth ball, under 15 years old. If I am wrong, sorry.

The readers are laughing at you because in most places what you have done (not ejecting someone in eight years) is impossible unless you completely fail to do your job.

It is possible under one set of circumstances. Some youth leagues have such severe disciplinary procedures put in place for bad behavior that everyone toes the line. The coaches/players/parents are afraid of the consequences that the league president or BOD will hand down. This is the way that it should be. Youth ball umpires should not be in charge of behavior. League BOD's should be keeping a lid on things.

Unfortunately, that is not the way that it usually works. If someone came to me and said that he had not ejected anyone in eight years, I would say that he was not doing his job. It would be like a policeman with eight years experience applying for a job and saying that he had never arrested anyone because the town where he worked were law abiding citizens and he was able to talk them into doing right when they got rowdy.

Great for that town, but do you want this policeman in your inner city. Likewise, I cannot use an umpire who does not know when and how to eject someone from a baseball game. It is a learned skill, like writing tickets, or chasing drug dealers. You cannot read a book about it and be proficient.

I have 1 ejection every 8-10 games and have for years. I use ejections as a game management tool and try to plan them for offenses that have nothing to do with one of my calls. (You can read about it on the paid part of the site.) Many umpires have fewer but nobody operates at a high level with less that 1 ejection every 25-30 games unless they are pawning the behavior problems off on their partners. (Jon Bible notwithstanding but he is a super big dog with super credibility that you and I will never have.) That, in a nutshell, is why you have a credibility problem with your readers.

Peter

Peter:

In my experience as an umpire, assignor and evaluator I believe that 50% of ejections begin with a coach not knowing a rule or the application thereof, correctly. 24% begin with a coach arguing a correct judgment call that went against his team. 24% begin with a coach arguing an incoreect judgment call that went against his team. And the remaining 2% begin in a variety of situations that don't fall under the other three catagories.

I've never ejected a coach who hadn't had at least one opportunity to not get ejected. Often they are given two or more.

Instant ejections: The F bomb directed at me or one of my partners, drawing a line in the dirt, making physical contact with me or one of my partners, including spitting (This happened to one of my umpires this summer) among a few others.

Some may ask, "where was the one opportunity for a coach who violates one of these "instant" causes to not get ejected?" It was when he was deciding whether or not to do something that incredibly stupid.

Nearly all other ejections, even though they may have begun for one of the reasons listed above, usually have, as the ending scenario, a coach too damn stupid to know when to stop.

When to stop following me. When to stop arguing judgment calls, when to stop displaying his lack of rules knowledge and just plain when to stop yapping. In other words, not knowing when to STFU.

Depending on the scenario the coaches in the last catagory will get at least two opportunities to get a clue. If he doesn't take the opporutnity, he then gets a whole lot of time to try to figure out why he didn't.

I will not leave a mess for other umpires to deal with in the future. No coach is going to give another umpire crap because he got away with it with me.

All that said. I didn't have an ejection the entire school season and just four during summer ball. That's four ejections in about 127 games.

[wobster]

Peter, you are correct, I have worked Babe Ruth. Next year, I am going to get registered to do high school ball. Off the top of my head, I can think of about 3 or 4 situations where I kicked myself for not dumping somebody. I think the reason I have not had too many problems is that a lot of places I get calls to work, especially in tournaments, the normal umpire is a dad who volunteers. They are pleased to have an umpire who knows the rules.

I umpire mainly in one area, and umpire many of their games, where I sit on the BOD, and the coaches don't mess with me too much. I hear a little chirping about the zone, but nothing major.

Next year in high school ball, I will most definitely have to eject someone, if not many. That is one of the main reasons I started the thread.

I have recently changed my mind on ejections. For a long time, and about 3/4 of this season, I thought ejections are bad, and make you look bad. After reading articles and posting here, I am going to adopt a different attitude. Use it as a tool, as Peter suggested.

I did not delete the thread, and I was checking back later to see how much crap was given to me, but it was gone.



[Edited by wobster on Aug 11th, 2004 at 03:52 PM]

[GarthB]

Originally posted by cbfoulds
Yeah, I noticed that thread was missing: did out illustious moderator/censor step in, or did the originator delete the thread?
[Edited by cbfoulds on Aug 11th, 2004 at 03:14 PM]

The "originator" did not delete the thread.

[wobster]

I also encourage anyone who disagrees with something in one of my articles to e-mail me. My address is chadhickey@officiating.com.

[Tim C]

Chris:

Ejection is part "art" and part "science".

There are the easy ones that many have posted about. Swearing directed AT you, the famous "Magic Words" (as defined by Richie Powers in his autobiography).

The hard ones come from situations that are usually related to a coach not knowing when to STFU. There comes a time when a line gets drawn (usually when the umpire turns and walks deeper in to the outfield) that when you turn around and the rat is still there he goes.

Rats that are demonstrative must also go . . . pointing at the base, drawing lines with the foot, etc. means they go.

In my first 3,100 games I ejected 311 players, coaches, scorekeepers, groundskeepers, press box attendants, etc. In the last four years I have ONE ejection . . . in the last THREE years I have had exactly two coaches come on to the field to discuss a call.

Am I that much better . . . nope, the word just got around that I don't allow the crap that some guys do.

But a funny thing is most coaches think I am very approachable. That is the blend I look for . . .

Show me an umpire that does not eject and I'll show you a guy that has royally screwed the rest of the umpires that work for that team and coach.

Sorry the article should never have been written by someone who has never worked high enough in the chain to know what they are talking about, are also a practicing rat and sits on the board (as a rat) of a local league.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Aug 11th, 2004 at 10:36 PM]

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

FYI, the state did not uphold my ejection for cheating, so no fine, which is required, was issued. They wanted me to issue a warning and dugout arrest first.
[/B]

Peter

I know you've written about this before & I have wanted to ask: is this actually a VHSL proceedure [review/appeal of an EJ], and if so, is it published anywhere?

In my part of the state, (public)HS ejections, esp. for coaches are rare, but mostly because the coaches have an incentive [the fine] to know where the line is and to stay on the warm, dry side of that line.

At the Rules meeting this spring I did take note of a plaintive "reminder" that bench arrest is available and we don't HAVE to EJ the coach; but I have never heard anything about the proceedure you describe [tell 'em exactly what they are doing wrong, warn 'em, bench arrest, EJ only after the foregoing]; nor have I ever experienced or heard of an EJ being appealed or the fine remitted 'cause an ump went to G'Bye w/o passing Go [to the bench and stay there]. Last I heard/ read from the Book, bench arrest was Umpire Option, not a prerequisite to dumping the rats.

Just curious if this is actually set down in writing by the state, or is a unwritten "folkway" that I have so far managed to avoid smelling, or (sigh) something that only happens w/ your group [which would be sad for what is probably the largest and most respected Assn. in the Commonwealth].

--Carter

[cbfoulds]

Peter,

I am suspecting that "AD in his pocket" has a lot to do with the "policy" as well as the specific application. Guess I'll find out the next time I toss a public HS coach. Last time I know it wasn't appealed, but I suspect there may have been a "gentlemen's agreement" between my commissioner/Board and the AD that what C'ville didn't know wouldn't hurt anybody we cared about.

I like your approach to the unsafe bat/ cheating EJ. I am a no-good lawsuit-monkey [aka lawyer] in "real life": I can see major sorrow resulting from a Sesame Street treatment of these matters. As you wrote, the EJ firmly establishes that you were doing your job diligently. Also your response to the AD about following the "proceedure".

Last time I had a disputed HS EJ was with one of our private schools. Coach A was giving me a ration of crap about a fair-foul call, and failed to take several polite suggestions that he STFU. I was on our Board at the time, so I was fully aware of what was going on. Seems that there was an appeal to the District or Athletic Assn. this school plays under concerning the suspension: Coach A was going to be out for the first couple of games of the playoffs.

Since the EJ was for general USC, and not anything like a physical challenge, or threat to the umpires, our Assn. took the position [with my concurrence] that we take care of business on the field at that specific game. Additional consequences like fines and suspensions are between the Coach, his school, and Higher Authority. If he misbehaves again, whenever his next game is, we take care of it then, too [at least in theory].

The punch line is that we fast forward a season: I'm back at that school and we have a rain delay, during which Coach A is telling us about a controversy he had in an away game recently. Somehow, Coach starts talking about how he got EJ'd, last year: "that Ump tossed me for arguing a foul call, but they ruled he was out of line ..."

ME: "Wait a sec. Coach: that was me, and our Board said we didn't care about the suspension; but you stayed ejected, I wasn't found to have been out of line, and the fact that I am here today proves it!"

I got some interseting sideways looks from him after the game resumed, but no static!

--Carter

[Dave Hensley]

Both MLB and the NCAA contain some useful and specific guidelines for their umpires to follow, and for the most part these guidelines will hold you in good stead for just about any youth, scholastic, or amateur contest:

---

NCAA guidelines:

A) Use of profanity specifically directed at an umpire or vulgar personal insults, including accusations of bias, or cheating.

B) Deliberate physical contact with an umpire.

C) Refusal to stop arguing, and further delaying the game after the umpire has provided a player or coach adequate opportunity to make his point. The umpire should warn the player or coach that he has been heard and should return to his position or the dugout or he will be ejected.

D) Arguing balls and strikes (including check swings) after being warned.

E) Use of gestures (e.g. jumping up and down, sliding on the ground, or violently waving arms) while arguing with an umpire, or stepping out of the dugout and making such gestures toward an umpire.

F) Throwing uniform items, equipment or other items while arguing or from the dugout.

G) There are other specific actions listed in the NCAA Baseball Rule Book that result in immediate ejection. These violations include a pitcher intentionally throwing at a batter, a runner flagrantly colliding with a fielder, bench jockeying etc. These rules are to be enforced strictly as written.

---

And the MLB guidelines, from the MLB Umpire Manual:

Use of profanity specifically directed at an umpire or vulgar personal insults of an umpire are grounds for ejection.

Physical contact with an umpire is a ground for ejection.

Refusal to stop arguing, and further delaying the game after the umpire has provided a player or manager adequate opportunity to make a point, is a ground for ejection. The umpire should warn the player or manager that he has been heard and that he should return his position or be ejected. If a player, coach, or manager leaves his position to argue balls and strikes (including half swings), he should be warned to immediately return or he will be automatically ejected.

During an argument if a manager, coach, or player makes reference to having observed a video replay that purportedly contradicts the call under dispute, such person is subject to immediate ejection from the game.

Use of histrionic gestures (e.g., jumping up and down, violently waving arms, or demonstrations) while arguing with an umpire, or stepping out of the dugout and making gestures toward an umpire, are grounds for ejection. Throwing anything out of a dugout (towels, cups, equipment, etc.) is a ground for automatic ejection.

Actions by players specifically intended to ridicule an umpire are grounds for ejection. Examples include drawing a line in the dirt to demonstrate location of a pitch or leaving equipment at the plate after striking out with less than two outs.

Throwing equipment in disgust over an umpire's call may be a ground for ejection. In some situations, the umpire can warn the player and cause a fine to be issued for throwing equipment, but if the umpire deems the action severe, the umpire may eject the offender.

Any player, manager, or coach who fails to comply with an order from an umpire to do or to refrain from doing anything that affects administering the rules and regulations governing play is subject to ejection in accordance with Official Baseball Rule 9.01. Examples of this include failure to stay within the lines of the batter's box after warning from the umpire, refusal to submit a piece of equipment for the umpire's inspection, etc.

While the standards listed here may justify an ejection, Official Baseball Rule 9.01(d) grants umpires discretion to eject any participant "for objecting to decisions or for unsportsmanlike conduct or language." In addition, there are situations listed in the Official Baseball Rules and the Procedures and Interpretations portion of this manual that result in immediate ejection. These situations include violations such as arguing a "step balk," pitcher in possession of a foreign substance, batter charging the pitcher with the intention of fighting the pitcher, pitcher intentionally throwing at a batter after a warning, etc.

---

Hope this helps.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley

E) Use of gestures (e.g. jumping up and down, sliding on the ground, or violently waving arms) while arguing with an umpire, or stepping out of the dugout and making such gestures toward an umpire.

That is so true. Yesterday, durring a Babe Ruth game, F1 picked off R3 from the windup. The defensive manager came out to argue with me. He went along saying that F1 can't throw to a base from the windup, and I camly explained to him that that is a FED rule. This only fueled him more, and unable to hold back his anger any more, the manager decided to slide on the ground. I promptly ejected him from the game. No one slides on the ground in front of me and gets away with it.

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
My response was:

"Yeah, and I'm the Pope. In umpire circles I am known as His Holiness." They were barely able to contain their anger.

ROTFL!!! I would have loved to see the look on their faces.