Dead ball appeal

[jmkupka]

Understood, Mike, I was indicating that she can't leave the base for both reasons- live ball (ball in circle), or dead ball (time is called).
Thanks for clarifying, guys.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Understood, Mike, I was indicating that she can't leave the base for both reasons- live ball (ball in circle), or dead ball (time is called).
Thanks for clarifying, guys.

Maybe I'm missing this, but a runner can leave the base during a dead ball period and can do so to touch or retouch bases missed or bases left too soon.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Maybe I'm missing this, but a runner can leave the base during a dead ball period and can do so to touch or retouch bases missed or bases left too soon.

I agree if the reason for the dead ball is a ball entering DBT that allows the runner to be awarded bases.

But if it's just a routine dead ball, runners cannot correct mistakes at that point, can they?

Example: BR misses first and advances to second base for a double, sliding into the bag just ahead of the tag. She requests Time to get up and dust off, and is granted it. She cannot then go back to first to touch it and then return to second base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Example: BR misses first and advances to second base for a double, sliding into the bag just ahead of the tag. She requests Time to get up and dust off, and is granted it. She cannot then go back to first to touch it and then return to second base.

Please cite a rule, any book.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Please cite a rule, any book.

In NCAA, the rule is 7.1.4:

A runner may not return to touch a missed base or one left before a fly ball was first touched when:
7.1.4.1 She has left the field of play.
7.1.4.2 A following runner has scored.
7.1.4.3 She is standing on a base beyond the base she missed or left before a fly ball was first touched, and play is suspended by the umpire.

In FED, there is a combination of rules:

2-1-3.b.2: If the ball goes out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities before a dead ball appeal can be made. No mention that they can complete their responsibilities when the ball stays in play but Time is called.

2-1-6: A runner may not return to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if:
a. she has reached a base beyond the base missed or left too soon and the ball becomes dead.

I'm guessing ASA has something similar, but I don't have a rule book handy.

[Edited to add] Are you suggesting that runners can fix mistakes after Time is called? Suppose R1 at second leaves her base by ten feet on a caught fly ball and easily makes it to third, and the BU grants Time because someone asked for it. Are you going to allow her to go back to second to fix her mistake before giving the defense the opportunity to make a dead-ball appeal? Really? Aren't you giving the offense a HUGE advantage not intended by the rules here?

[jmkupka]

Manny, your edit is the exact crux of my question. Can't wait to read the consensus..

[Manny A]

Here's another scenario:

Visiting team is losing by two in the top of the 7th, and the bases are loaded with two outs. Batter hits a bases-clearing double, but she missed first base. First base coach saw the missed base, and immediately runs onto the field to high-five the BR at second, causing the BU to call Time, and restrict the coach to the bench for the rest of the game. As the coach heads to his dugout, he tells the runner, "Now go back and touch first and then go back to second!"

No way the rules would allow for this.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Let's talk the rationale for the rules relating to the questions.

Runners need an opportunity to fix running mistakes. While the ball is live, they have every opportunity to return to a based left early, or missed. In the old days (meaning, before the dead ball appeal, and subsequent rules tweaks), once the ball became dead, they had no such opportunity. If umpires realized that runners were still attempting to run the bases, they would/should refuse to grant time.

So, what did the players do? Well, they threw the ball out of play to kill the play and any opportunity for baserunners to finish running the bases. Who cares if there is a base award to a runner that is going to be out on appeal? So, the first rule tweak was to allow a runner to continue if, and only if, they were in the act of returning when the ball became dead.

Adding the dead ball appeal made it a bigger issue. When all appeals were live ball, not everyone stupidly called time to force the ball to become live again from the pitcher's plate; but now, practically every true appeal is dead ball. What to let the runners do, what stops the defense from rigging the system? The rule and POE/RS were modified to say that runners must be given the opportunity to complete advancement; then added the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities.

BUT, the RULE 8.7-I(3-a) only relates to legal advancement "if the ball leaves live ball territory". The RS adds that umpires should hesitate to allow completion of running responsibilities, and then (or if responsibilitiies are ignored) make base awards; because once the runner touches the next awarded base, there can be no going back. The Note: under "May Not Return" in the RS#1 is clear as the intent of all these.

So, the edited question:

No, the runner is given the opportunity to fix mistakes during live ball, or if the ball leaves the live ball territory. Umpires should not grant time when there is the live ball opportunity to fix, and absolutely not if there seems to be any inkling or recognition by the offense that may need to happen. (We grant time when all play is ended by rule, not to stop further play.) If the ball doesn't become dead by the umpire granting an unneeded "time", we haven't created the impossibility of their fix.

IMO, the base umpire should almost NEVER grant time, unless immediate danger to someone or the ridiculous hold-a-tag game has broken out; let the plate umpire with the broader over-all view knowing all play has ended by rule call time if it needs to be granted. That "someone asked for it" is rarely one of my considerations, unless I see a reason (coach wants a conference, making a sub, checking on a player, or ready to make a dead ball appeal). Seriously, when was the last time you DIDN'T know they wanted to appeal before they actually did?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I agree if the reason for the dead ball is a ball entering DBT that allows the runner to be awarded bases.

But if it's just a routine dead ball, runners cannot correct mistakes at that point, can they?

Example: BR misses first and advances to second base for a double, sliding into the bag just ahead of the tag. She requests Time to get up and dust off, and is granted it. She cannot then go back to first to touch it and then return to second base.

From the 2013 Umpire Clinic Guide:

2. Dead. The dead ball appeal may be made:

a) Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be given ample opportunity, in the umpire’s judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities. Any infielder, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. The pitcher and the catcher are considered infielders for the appeal process. The appropriate umpire should then make a decision on the play.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

From the 2013 Umpire Clinic Guide:

2. Dead. The dead ball appeal may be made:

a) Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be given ample opportunity, in the umpire’s judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities. Any infielder, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. The pitcher and the catcher are considered infielders for the appeal process. The appropriate umpire should then make a decision on the play.

I assume this is ASA only? The rules I quoted before from NFHS and NCAA would seem to assert that base runners cannot return to those bases once the umpire calls Time, and only can correct mistakes when the ball enters dead ball territory.