Dead ball appeal

[jmkupka]

Just need clarification for my own mechanics.

R1 on 1B, base hit to RF, R1 misses 2B and is on 3B by the time ball is back in the circle. DC calls TIME (inexperience, or whatever, chooses not to use a live-ball appeal, and walks out to appeal to PU. Time is called, and at the same time, 3B coach tells R1 to get back to 2B quick.
At which point is it too late to correct her mistake?
As soon as ball is in circle?
As soon as time is called?
If the ball gets to the circle a split-second after she hits 3B, she'll be out on a LBR violation if she tries to fix it then, no?
PU, when time is requested, should pause until all action is completed, however no more action could legally happen at this point, correct?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

At which point is it too late to correct her mistake?
As soon as ball is in circle?

Sort of... not really, but sort of... (it's not the ball in the circle that makes it too late, it's her being stopped on a base when the ball is in the circle that makes it too late).

As soon as time is called?

Definitely.

If the ball gets to the circle a split-second after she hits 3B, she'll be out on a LBR violation if she tries to fix it then, no?

Sort of...

PU, when time is requested, should pause until all action is completed, however no more action could legally happen at this point, correct?

Assuming the runner is ON third, and stopped, then yes, PU can call time.

One minor thing on your LBR assumption and your "as soon as the ball is in the circle" part. If the runner here is already stopped on the base when the pitcher gets the ball, then your assumptions are right. But the "if the ball gets to the circle a split second after she hits 3B" part... the runners don't have to stop. If she hits 3rd, and rounds a bit, play is not over. The runner, once she stops moving forward, must decide which way to go. If that is back toward 3rd, she CAN continue running back to 2nd, assuming she doesn't again stop on third base.

Yes, it's a nit... but the way this read (to me at least) seemed to make a couple of assumptions that might not always be true.

[jmkupka]

Thanks, this makes it a bit clearer. This situation has never arisen for me (runner correcting her mistake before a dead-ball appeal can be ruled on), but it will someday.
Basically, it couldn't ever happen because:
a) I can't call time until she's done running around, and
b) She can't run back after I call time.

If I'm being dense here, could you give me a sit in which it does happen?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Thanks, this makes it a bit clearer. This situation has never arisen for me (runner correcting her mistake before a dead-ball appeal can be ruled on), but it will someday.
Basically, it couldn't ever happen because:
a) I can't call time until she's done running around, and
b) She can't run back after I call time.

If I'm being dense here, could you give me a sit in which it does happen?

Most runners won't correct their mistakes once they've reached the next base and play is essentially over. And, really, I don't think a runner or her base coach is going to figure out that the reason a defensive coach is requesting time is to initiate a dead-ball appeal. Most defensive coaches aren't going to preface a time request by blurting out, "HEY, SHE MISSED SECOND! HEY, BLUE, TIME, TIME!"

Frankly, I'm surprised by your comment, "DC calls TIME (inexperience, or whatever, chooses not to use a live-ball appeal". In softball where dead-ball appeals are recognized, why shouldn't a coach opt to do it that way as opposed to doing a live-ball appeal? I've seen baseball teams screw up live-ball appeals when they fail to throw the ball accurately to the base where they want to make the appeal, or when the pitcher balks while disengaging the rubber. If the dead-ball appeal is available to him/her, the coach should use that option.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Thanks, this makes it a bit clearer. This situation has never arisen for me (runner correcting her mistake before a dead-ball appeal can be ruled on), but it will someday.
Basically, it couldn't ever happen because:
a) I can't call time until she's done running around, and
b) She can't run back after I call time.

If I'm being dense here, could you give me a sit in which it does happen?

I don't think the kind of thing you're imagining can happen. What can happen is this. BR misses first on way to a double. Batted ball enters dead ball territory. Batter is awarded second. We will not accept a dead ball appeal of missing first until she has had an opportunity to correct her baserunning mistake.

[jmkupka]

youngump, yours is definitely a more likely situation:

Long drive lands fair, B/R rounds (and misses) 1B on her way to 2B, hopes nobody saw, then sees she has new life as the ball rolls foul beyond homerun fence. Takes her time retracing her steps as DC is yelling "Appealing she missed 1st, Blue!"

Sorry coach, denied...

[MD Longhorn]

Obstruction could also cause this scenario - a runner who missed their base receiving an award via OBS would have the opportunity to fix their mistake before the defense could appeal.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Just need clarification for my own mechanics.

R1 on 1B, base hit to RF, R1 misses 2B and is on 3B by the time ball is back in the circle. DC calls TIME (inexperience, or whatever, chooses not to use a live-ball appeal, and walks out to appeal to PU. Time is called, and at the same time, 3B coach tells R1 to get back to 2B quick.
At which point is it too late to correct her mistake?
As soon as ball is in circle?
As soon as time is called?
If the ball gets to the circle a split-second after she hits 3B, she'll be out on a LBR violation if she tries to fix it then, no?
PU, when time is requested, should pause until all action is completed, however no more action could legally happen at this point, correct?

Speaking ASA

DC can call time all s/he wants, the umpire should not call time until all play is obviously complete.

Once time is called, base runners must be given the opportunity to complete their running tasks regardless of any direction. Once you call time, you give it a couple seconds to see if there is any action and then talk to the coach, who obviously will get perturbed when you tell him you cannot accept an appeal from the coach.

BTW, you cannot have an LBR violation during a dead ball.

[jmkupka]

Understood, Mike, I was indicating that she can't leave the base for both reasons- live ball (ball in circle), or dead ball (time is called).
Thanks for clarifying, guys.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Understood, Mike, I was indicating that she can't leave the base for both reasons- live ball (ball in circle), or dead ball (time is called).
Thanks for clarifying, guys.

Maybe I'm missing this, but a runner can leave the base during a dead ball period and can do so to touch or retouch bases missed or bases left too soon.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Maybe I'm missing this, but a runner can leave the base during a dead ball period and can do so to touch or retouch bases missed or bases left too soon.

I agree if the reason for the dead ball is a ball entering DBT that allows the runner to be awarded bases.

But if it's just a routine dead ball, runners cannot correct mistakes at that point, can they?

Example: BR misses first and advances to second base for a double, sliding into the bag just ahead of the tag. She requests Time to get up and dust off, and is granted it. She cannot then go back to first to touch it and then return to second base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Example: BR misses first and advances to second base for a double, sliding into the bag just ahead of the tag. She requests Time to get up and dust off, and is granted it. She cannot then go back to first to touch it and then return to second base.

Please cite a rule, any book.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Please cite a rule, any book.

In NCAA, the rule is 7.1.4:

A runner may not return to touch a missed base or one left before a fly ball was first touched when:
7.1.4.1 She has left the field of play.
7.1.4.2 A following runner has scored.
7.1.4.3 She is standing on a base beyond the base she missed or left before a fly ball was first touched, and play is suspended by the umpire.

In FED, there is a combination of rules:

2-1-3.b.2: If the ball goes out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities before a dead ball appeal can be made. No mention that they can complete their responsibilities when the ball stays in play but Time is called.

2-1-6: A runner may not return to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if:
a. she has reached a base beyond the base missed or left too soon and the ball becomes dead.

I'm guessing ASA has something similar, but I don't have a rule book handy.

[Edited to add] Are you suggesting that runners can fix mistakes after Time is called? Suppose R1 at second leaves her base by ten feet on a caught fly ball and easily makes it to third, and the BU grants Time because someone asked for it. Are you going to allow her to go back to second to fix her mistake before giving the defense the opportunity to make a dead-ball appeal? Really? Aren't you giving the offense a HUGE advantage not intended by the rules here?

[jmkupka]

Manny, your edit is the exact crux of my question. Can't wait to read the consensus..

[Manny A]

Here's another scenario:

Visiting team is losing by two in the top of the 7th, and the bases are loaded with two outs. Batter hits a bases-clearing double, but she missed first base. First base coach saw the missed base, and immediately runs onto the field to high-five the BR at second, causing the BU to call Time, and restrict the coach to the bench for the rest of the game. As the coach heads to his dugout, he tells the runner, "Now go back and touch first and then go back to second!"

No way the rules would allow for this.