Dead ball appeal

[jmkupka]

Just need clarification for my own mechanics.

R1 on 1B, base hit to RF, R1 misses 2B and is on 3B by the time ball is back in the circle. DC calls TIME (inexperience, or whatever, chooses not to use a live-ball appeal, and walks out to appeal to PU. Time is called, and at the same time, 3B coach tells R1 to get back to 2B quick.
At which point is it too late to correct her mistake?
As soon as ball is in circle?
As soon as time is called?
If the ball gets to the circle a split-second after she hits 3B, she'll be out on a LBR violation if she tries to fix it then, no?
PU, when time is requested, should pause until all action is completed, however no more action could legally happen at this point, correct?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

At which point is it too late to correct her mistake?
As soon as ball is in circle?

Sort of... not really, but sort of... (it's not the ball in the circle that makes it too late, it's her being stopped on a base when the ball is in the circle that makes it too late).

As soon as time is called?

Definitely.

If the ball gets to the circle a split-second after she hits 3B, she'll be out on a LBR violation if she tries to fix it then, no?

Sort of...

PU, when time is requested, should pause until all action is completed, however no more action could legally happen at this point, correct?

Assuming the runner is ON third, and stopped, then yes, PU can call time.

One minor thing on your LBR assumption and your "as soon as the ball is in the circle" part. If the runner here is already stopped on the base when the pitcher gets the ball, then your assumptions are right. But the "if the ball gets to the circle a split second after she hits 3B" part... the runners don't have to stop. If she hits 3rd, and rounds a bit, play is not over. The runner, once she stops moving forward, must decide which way to go. If that is back toward 3rd, she CAN continue running back to 2nd, assuming she doesn't again stop on third base.

Yes, it's a nit... but the way this read (to me at least) seemed to make a couple of assumptions that might not always be true.

[jmkupka]

Thanks, this makes it a bit clearer. This situation has never arisen for me (runner correcting her mistake before a dead-ball appeal can be ruled on), but it will someday.
Basically, it couldn't ever happen because:
a) I can't call time until she's done running around, and
b) She can't run back after I call time.

If I'm being dense here, could you give me a sit in which it does happen?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Thanks, this makes it a bit clearer. This situation has never arisen for me (runner correcting her mistake before a dead-ball appeal can be ruled on), but it will someday.
Basically, it couldn't ever happen because:
a) I can't call time until she's done running around, and
b) She can't run back after I call time.

If I'm being dense here, could you give me a sit in which it does happen?

Most runners won't correct their mistakes once they've reached the next base and play is essentially over. And, really, I don't think a runner or her base coach is going to figure out that the reason a defensive coach is requesting time is to initiate a dead-ball appeal. Most defensive coaches aren't going to preface a time request by blurting out, "HEY, SHE MISSED SECOND! HEY, BLUE, TIME, TIME!"

Frankly, I'm surprised by your comment, "DC calls TIME (inexperience, or whatever, chooses not to use a live-ball appeal". In softball where dead-ball appeals are recognized, why shouldn't a coach opt to do it that way as opposed to doing a live-ball appeal? I've seen baseball teams screw up live-ball appeals when they fail to throw the ball accurately to the base where they want to make the appeal, or when the pitcher balks while disengaging the rubber. If the dead-ball appeal is available to him/her, the coach should use that option.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Thanks, this makes it a bit clearer. This situation has never arisen for me (runner correcting her mistake before a dead-ball appeal can be ruled on), but it will someday.
Basically, it couldn't ever happen because:
a) I can't call time until she's done running around, and
b) She can't run back after I call time.

If I'm being dense here, could you give me a sit in which it does happen?

I don't think the kind of thing you're imagining can happen. What can happen is this. BR misses first on way to a double. Batted ball enters dead ball territory. Batter is awarded second. We will not accept a dead ball appeal of missing first until she has had an opportunity to correct her baserunning mistake.

[jmkupka]

youngump, yours is definitely a more likely situation:

Long drive lands fair, B/R rounds (and misses) 1B on her way to 2B, hopes nobody saw, then sees she has new life as the ball rolls foul beyond homerun fence. Takes her time retracing her steps as DC is yelling "Appealing she missed 1st, Blue!"

Sorry coach, denied...

[MD Longhorn]

Obstruction could also cause this scenario - a runner who missed their base receiving an award via OBS would have the opportunity to fix their mistake before the defense could appeal.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Just need clarification for my own mechanics.

R1 on 1B, base hit to RF, R1 misses 2B and is on 3B by the time ball is back in the circle. DC calls TIME (inexperience, or whatever, chooses not to use a live-ball appeal, and walks out to appeal to PU. Time is called, and at the same time, 3B coach tells R1 to get back to 2B quick.
At which point is it too late to correct her mistake?
As soon as ball is in circle?
As soon as time is called?
If the ball gets to the circle a split-second after she hits 3B, she'll be out on a LBR violation if she tries to fix it then, no?
PU, when time is requested, should pause until all action is completed, however no more action could legally happen at this point, correct?

Speaking ASA

DC can call time all s/he wants, the umpire should not call time until all play is obviously complete.

Once time is called, base runners must be given the opportunity to complete their running tasks regardless of any direction. Once you call time, you give it a couple seconds to see if there is any action and then talk to the coach, who obviously will get perturbed when you tell him you cannot accept an appeal from the coach.

BTW, you cannot have an LBR violation during a dead ball.

[jmkupka]

Understood, Mike, I was indicating that she can't leave the base for both reasons- live ball (ball in circle), or dead ball (time is called).
Thanks for clarifying, guys.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Understood, Mike, I was indicating that she can't leave the base for both reasons- live ball (ball in circle), or dead ball (time is called).
Thanks for clarifying, guys.

Maybe I'm missing this, but a runner can leave the base during a dead ball period and can do so to touch or retouch bases missed or bases left too soon.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Maybe I'm missing this, but a runner can leave the base during a dead ball period and can do so to touch or retouch bases missed or bases left too soon.

I agree if the reason for the dead ball is a ball entering DBT that allows the runner to be awarded bases.

But if it's just a routine dead ball, runners cannot correct mistakes at that point, can they?

Example: BR misses first and advances to second base for a double, sliding into the bag just ahead of the tag. She requests Time to get up and dust off, and is granted it. She cannot then go back to first to touch it and then return to second base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Example: BR misses first and advances to second base for a double, sliding into the bag just ahead of the tag. She requests Time to get up and dust off, and is granted it. She cannot then go back to first to touch it and then return to second base.

Please cite a rule, any book.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I agree if the reason for the dead ball is a ball entering DBT that allows the runner to be awarded bases.

But if it's just a routine dead ball, runners cannot correct mistakes at that point, can they?

Example: BR misses first and advances to second base for a double, sliding into the bag just ahead of the tag. She requests Time to get up and dust off, and is granted it. She cannot then go back to first to touch it and then return to second base.

From the 2013 Umpire Clinic Guide:

2. Dead. The dead ball appeal may be made:

a) Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be given ample opportunity, in the umpire’s judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities. Any infielder, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. The pitcher and the catcher are considered infielders for the appeal process. The appropriate umpire should then make a decision on the play.