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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 24, 2003, 10:44am
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We are at odds in my association over these questions. If possible, I would really like to hear of a KNOWN authorative opinion, from an actual authority. Please consider:

Are there any DEAD ball balks? Pitcher stands on or astride the rubber, but the ball is not live, is anybody calling this a balk?

Tougher question: During an at bat, batter gets TIME to adjust gloves. During this break, pitcher, on the mound, goes to his mouth. Call the BALL? Or say "don't do that". Does 8.02a1 apply during a dead ball?

Weirder question. As para 1. Pitcher is on rubber, and PU does NOT realize pitcher does not have ball. He has been scanning stands for MILFS, he comes back to earth and points and says PLAY! At this time a fielder who has the ball tags a runner off a base.

Q1. Can umpire legally put ball in play if pitcher does not have ball? (Or is this another, oh crud, and don't do that?). Do you still call a balk? Put please reconcile with the dead ball issue.
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Old Sun Aug 24, 2003, 11:22am
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Here's how I would rule these examples: OBR

1) Nothing can ever happen if the ball is not LIVE. No balks, pickoffs, pitches, steals, etc... Umpires state "ball was dead," ignore any action, start over.

2) Ditto

3) The umpire inadvertently called PLAY. When he realizes it (pitcher doesn't have the ball), he has to nullify the tag play and start over with F1 on the rubber WITH the ball, and call PLAY again. His mistake.

4) Pitcher must be on the rubber with the ball for the umpire to call PLAY and make ball LIVE. See #1.
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Old Sun Aug 24, 2003, 07:19pm
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nineO1c

I support your reply to BJ. It seems to me that when the ball is dead, there is nothing on the diamond that can OFFICIALLY occur. If F1 is standing on the rubber licking his hands and spitting on the ball, why---why in the world would an upire put the ball in play. I would think it strange if F1 was doing a hand stand off one end of the rubber, but I would not point the ball live.

Mr. Moose, do you not concur? Oh, and does 8.01a1 apply when the ball is dead? Forget about it!! And your Q1.-- OBR 5.11 seems to cover that question.

Agreed, this is very arguable stuff, but an umpire can not control his game if he can't shut it down COMPLETELY at those appropriate times.
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Old Sun Aug 24, 2003, 10:29pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BJ Moose
We are at odds in my association over these questions.
Brother Moose..............
I don't know why you are at odds.
I agree with the other responses.
What do you think the meaning of "dead" means in "dead ball?"
I know you are wise enough to make the correct decision on these.
Let those others call it in their games and see what happens......


Freix

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Old Mon Aug 25, 2003, 09:09am
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I agree with the other responses as well. "Dead Ball" or "Time" and any type of killing the play language that use in your games means exactly what you say.

In all levels of baseball, when time has been called or the ball is dead, play has stopped nothing else can happen until the umpire puts the ball back in play.

I strongly to all umpires to not try calling a balk when the ball is dead. Early in my umpiring career, I thought the same thing the original poster did, and I made balk before when the ball was dead.

I thought the gates of H*** were going to open up and swallow me right there on the spot when I saw the pitcher's coach get upset with me about the call I made.

Not being a smarty pants about this topic because we are all here to learn and get better as officials. In closing, nothing can happen when time has been granted or the ball has been delcared dead by an umpire.
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Old Mon Aug 25, 2003, 09:14am
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Bfair,

If somebody calls a dead ball balk.....it won't be a pretty situation will it?
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 25, 2003, 10:53am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bfair
Quote:
Originally posted by BJ Moose
We are at odds in my association over these questions.
Brother Moose..............
I don't know why you are at odds.
I agree with the other responses.
What do you think the meaning of "dead" means in "dead ball?"
I know you are wise enough to make the correct decision on these.
Let those others call it in their games and see what happens......


Freix

I suspect BJ has the correct response and his association is wrong.
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Old Mon Aug 25, 2003, 10:59am
Rog Rog is offline
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Re: "We are at odds in my association over these questions."

Any other associations in your area? If not, ever think of starting one? Change is good they say.....
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Old Mon Aug 25, 2003, 11:14am
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"We are at odds in my association over these questions. "

Tough decision here. Do I believe the above statement or the chosen "emoticon"

Knowing your association somewhat, or at least several fine examples within it, it's hard to believe that this is a serious or lengthy topic of discussion. And the message from the emoticon seems to convey the impression that you have the answer you need.

Now then, Mr. Sandlin writes:

"If somebody calls a dead ball balk.....it won't be a pretty situation will it? "

I agree, however there was a thread on this very board about a year ago in which a very small minority advocated that very thing. Even that thread wasn't pretty.
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Old Mon Aug 25, 2003, 12:28pm
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A couple points of order please.

"Within my association" simply means a few umpires having a discussion... In no way am I implying or saying that "My Association" has a position contrary to the correct one. Far from it.. I believe I am part of one of the strongest umpire associations in the country, they even let in low level JV umpires like me.

So far, everyone, including me, at least here, agrees on all points.

The biggest bone of contention with SOME people I talk to (high level, experienced, top quality umpires). is that "trick play" scenario.

To refresh: R1.. after a pick off attempt, time granted, F3 fakes the return. Pitcher gets on the rubber AS IF he had the ball, and PU NOT REALIZING THE DEKE, says PLAY! Tag on runner by F3..

In my opinion... PU say, Oh crap. NO BALK! NO OUT! and Defense gets a stern talking to. Do over!

Some respected umpires insist to me that even though the call of PLAY may be technically incorrect, the ball IS in play and the BALK must be called due to the OBVIOUS illegal act and intent to decieve. Thoughts?
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Old Mon Aug 25, 2003, 12:38pm
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"Some respected umpires insist to me that even though the call of PLAY may be technically incorrect, the ball IS in play and the BALK must be called due to the OBVIOUS illegal act and intent to decieve."

I don't find that in Rule 8.00 or Rule 5.00. Hate to sound like a rule book umpire but occasionally one does have to resort to the book.
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Old Mon Aug 25, 2003, 03:26pm
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Perhaps they are using the logic of " It's a balk 'cause you're stupid enough to try that".
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Old Mon Aug 25, 2003, 08:12pm
Rog Rog is offline
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"Within my association" simply means a few umpires having a discussion... In no way am I implying or saying that "My Association" has a position contrary to the correct one. Far from it..

Well, that seems to be a far cry from this: "We are at odds in my association over these questions"

Which is it, time to squat or run-n- fetch.....
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Old Mon Aug 25, 2003, 08:24pm
Rog Rog is offline
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Re: "Some respected umpires insist to me that even though the call of PLAY may be technically incorrect, the ball IS in play and the BALK must be called due to the OBVIOUS illegal act and intent to decieve. Thoughts?"

So if these respected umpires are going to call a balk when the ball is dead (as in your case - R1.. after a pick off attempt, time granted, F3 fakes the return. Pitcher gets on the rubber AS IF he had the ball, and PU NOT REALIZING THE DEKE, says PLAY! Tag on runner by F3.. );so, are they also going to call the out in this situation?????
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Old Mon Aug 25, 2003, 09:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rog
Re: "Some respected umpires insist to me that even though the call of PLAY may be technically incorrect, the ball IS in play and the BALK must be called due to the OBVIOUS illegal act and intent to decieve.

They might be excellent umpires, but I would not respect their position in this case. And I wouldn't want to be on the field with them. Not much point in arguing this one anymore, although I think it is very black and white.

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