Bases loaded walk

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

To my mind, ASA has this one right, where FED does not. But given that the OP was FED, the runner from 3rd is AWARDED home (chap posts one of the places that shows FED feels this way), and on an award the runner must be given the opportunity to fix baserunning mistakes.

Rule or case play cite, please.

I agree with you on a dead ball appeal. There are plenty of case plays where a runner is awarded a base (or bases) when the ball is batted/thrown into DBT, and the runner is allowed to fix a base running mistake until she advances to and touches the base beyond the one where the mistake was made.

But on a live ball appeal, where does it say this premise also holds true? I've never seen a case play that says that, and never heard of it until this discussion.

I repeat the play that I mentioned earlier that nobody has addressed:

Say the batter-runner overruns first base on a walk, and misses the base in the process. If the defense appeals her miss by either tagging her or the base before she returns, is she not subject to an Out call? If not, why not? What rule protects her here? And if she is subject to an Out call, why wouldn't the same be true at any other base, including home?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

...There are plenty of case plays where a runner is awarded a base (or bases) when the ball is batted/thrown into DBT, and the runner is allowed to fix a base running mistake until she advances to and touches the base beyond the one where the mistake was made.

But on a live ball appeal, where does it say this premise also holds true? I've never seen a case play that says that, and never heard of it until this discussion...

That would be because this is the only instance where a base award happens during a live ball.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

That would be because this is the only instance where a base award happens during a live ball.

This is not correct. Albeit, I've never seen the other case.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

This is not correct. Albeit, I've never seen the other case.

Can you name another instance? I believe tom is correct.

But let me suggest this

Is not a baserunner permitted to set their own basepath?

What if you have the runner taking a couple steps past home to pick up a discarded bat and then turn to touch the plate?

Not saying it is the smartest move in the world, but there certainly isn't anything wrong with it, either. Point is, where are you drawing the line?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Can you name another instance? I believe tom is correct.

But let me suggest this

Is not a baserunner permitted to set their own basepath?

What if you have the runner taking a couple steps past home to pick up a discarded bat and then turn to touch the plate?

Not saying it is the smartest move in the world, but there certainly isn't anything wrong with it, either. Point is, where are you drawing the line?

Yes I can, but I didn't in the first post to give everbody time to think. Handling the ball with detached equipment is a live ball award.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

Yes I can, but I didn't in the first post to give everbody time to think. Handling the ball with detached equipment is a live ball award.

I disagree. That is an exemption from liability to be put out, not an award.

And making it an award would preclude the runner from returning to touch a missed base or base left too soon

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I disagree. That is an exemption from liability to be put out, not an award.

Since award isn't defined by rule I guess you you could make that claim but I'm not sure what the difference would be. The rule for a dropped third strike that is fielded with detached equipment specifically refers to to an award of first base.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Can you name another instance? I believe tom is correct.

But let me suggest this

Is not a baserunner permitted to set their own basepath?

What if you have the runner taking a couple steps past home to pick up a discarded bat and then turn to touch the plate?

Not saying it is the smartest move in the world, but there certainly isn't anything wrong with it, either. Point is, where are you drawing the line?

Key word in your post. PASSED. Under Fed rules when she has PASSED a base she is said to have touched the base. For a runner coming from 3b home, there is a very clear line as to what past the base is. It is the first base line, which is nicely drawn on the field of play for everyone to see.

If the runner stays over toward the 3b dug out to pick up a bat then touches home we have a different situation because she has not passed home plate yet and at this point she is still allowed to set her own base path as no play can legally be made on her since she is getting an awarded base.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Key word in your post. PASSED. Under Fed rules when she has PASSED a base she is said to have touched the base. For a runner coming from 3b home, there is a very clear line as to what past the base is. It is the first base line, which is nicely drawn on the field of play for everyone to see.

If the runner stays over toward the 3b dug out to pick up a bat then touches home we have a different situation because she has not passed home plate yet and at this point she is still allowed to set her own base path as no play can legally be made on her since she is getting an awarded base.

So, your position is you would rule differently based on which dugout her team may be in when she hasn't touched home nor entered dead ball territory? After all, if her team is in the third base dugout, she might never have "passed" the base, while missing it by even MORE than the OP.

Do you not see how that distinction would treat the teams on the field differently for doing the exact same thing? Do you think that would be the intent of any rule or approved ruling?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Key word in your post. PASSED. Under Fed rules when she has PASSED a base she is said to have touched the base. For a runner coming from 3b home, there is a very clear line as to what past the base is. It is the first base line, which is nicely drawn on the field of play for everyone to see.

If the runner stays over toward the 3b dug out to pick up a bat then touches home we have a different situation because she has not passed home plate yet and at this point she is still allowed to set her own base path as no play can legally be made on her since she is getting an awarded base.

Using this logic, a runner who shortcuts the base cannot be considered as having touched is because they never passed it.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Using this logic, a runner who shortcuts the base cannot be considered as having touched is because they never passed it.

When do you consider a runner to have passed the base? You need to be able to answer that question to be able to rule on appeals for a missed base.

There is no difference between a runner who misses a base by stepping with one foot on either side of the base, and running 10 feet inside of the base, short cutting the infield. As soon as they pass the base, they are subject to appeal for missing the base. Home plate is no different. As soon as they pass home plate they are subject to appeal for missing the plate.

The way the rules are written, yes the umpire needs to rule on the team on the third base side different from the first base side. Given the way the rules regarding running awarded bases, making plays on an runner awarded a base, and appeals are written, the runner for a team in the third base dug out would need to do something else to be ruled out on appeal, such as enter dead ball territory, or not have touched the base before the next pitch.

One other thing to consider, the umpire can rule the play dead under casebook play 8-3-11 situation c, when the runner acts in a manner not consistent with fair play. If the runner is intentionally not touching home plate, the umpire can declare the ball dead, require the runner to touch home plate, and issue a warning for unsportsmanlike behavior.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

But on a live ball appeal, where does it say this premise also holds true? I've never seen a case play that says that, and never heard of it until this discussion.

Given that the situation we're discussing is the ONLY time we have an awarded base during a live ball, I'd ask you the converse. Where does it say to treat this case differently than the other? It doesn't.

[jmkupka]

Another element of the OP is that the runner "cuts in front of home" on her way to the 1B dugout, so she should never be considered to have touched (passed) the base.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Given that the situation we're discussing is the ONLY time we have an awarded base during a live ball, I'd ask you the converse. Where does it say to treat this case differently than the other? It doesn't.

Ok, so the batter receives Ball Four, and the pitch gets away from the catcher. The BR rounds first on her way to second base and makes it safely. The defensive coach instructs his team to do a Live Ball appeal at first because the BR missed first base (which she did). F2 throws the ball to first base and it gets away from F3 and goes down the right field line.

Is the BR allowed to go back and touch first? Or is she no longer able to because she advanced and touched second?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Ok, so the batter receives Ball Four, and the pitch gets away from the catcher. The BR rounds first on her way to second base and makes it safely. The defensive coach instructs his team to do a Live Ball appeal at first because the BR missed first base (which she did). F2 throws the ball to first base and it gets away from F3 and goes down the right field line.

Is the BR allowed to go back and touch first? Or is she no longer able to because she advanced and touched second?

Second is not an awarded base in this case.