Bases Loaded Walk...

[mightymoose_22]

Bases are loaded and the batter walks, forcing in a run. However, the runner coming in from third does not touch home plate and heads toward the dugout. His coaches get his attention before he reaches the dugout and he hurries back toward the plate to tag it but he is first tagged with the ball.

Since the runner was forced in by the walk, does he remain safe to return to the plate and tag it or would he be out? At what point would his protection due to the force end?

Since he was forced in because of the walk it seems unlikely he could be called out. Even though he missed the plate, he did return to tag it, and the fact that the other team tagged him would by moot since he was forced home.

I realize that at any other base, the same situation could result in an out. Say the runner was forced to second on a walk, failed to touch second and advanced toward third. He could be put out.

The difference here is that at home plate there is no other base to advance to. A note I read to rule 7.04 indicated that a runner's exemption ends if he fails to touch a base before attempting to advance. Since he could not advance further than home plate, the question is whether his exemption expires once he takes a step beyond it or not.

Any opinions on the situation?

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by mightymoose_22

I realize that at any other base, the same situation could result in an out. Say the runner was forced to second on a walk, failed to touch second and advanced toward third. He could be put out.

Home is no different my man. He's out!

[mightymoose_22]

Well I wondered if it might be different since at home there is no attempt to advance to the next base... the protection ends when you attempt to advance...

I called the kid out at first and then second guessed myself into letting him be safe because he had been forced in. I have heard opinions on both sides, but nobody has said anything definitive yet to convince me what the correct call is. It is the attempt to advance to the next base that makes it kind of hairy...

[wildcatter]

Just a guess but:

RULE 7.10, Approved Ruling (2)

". . . When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base."


So, he would be safe, since there was no base...


is the ball even dead? i'm just a basketball ref wandering over here!!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Anytime you miss a base, you are liable to be tagged out.

Why would it be any different than if the runner slid past home plate without touching it, and then was tagged out? On a base on balls, the ball remains alive. If this had been a dead-ball award, such as a HBP or the ball out of play, it would be different. The runner could then correct his mistake, and no play could be made on him. In this case, however, the runner is responsible for touching the bases in order, and if he misses one he can be called out on appeal.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by wildcatter

Just a guess but:

RULE 7.10, Approved Ruling (2)

". . . When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base."


So, he would be safe, since there was no base...


is the ball even dead? i'm just a basketball ref wandering over here!!

It isn't a dead ball so the rule doesn't apply.

And if it were he could return until he touched the next base past home.

[RPatrino]

A base award does not relieve the runner of the obligation to touch the base awarded and any other base(s) required.

With a runner on 3rd, BR choses to run to 2nd after a BB, but misses 1b. On proper appeal can the BR be called out for missing 1b?

BR hits a single, and in making a wide turn at 1b draws a throw which goes OOB. BR is awarded two bases, and missed 2nd on his way to 3b. Can he be called out?

[DG]

Originally Posted by mightymoose_22

Bases are loaded and the batter walks, forcing in a run. However, the runner coming in from third does not touch home plate and heads toward the dugout. His coaches get his attention before he reaches the dugout and he hurries back toward the plate to tag it but he is first tagged with the ball.

Any opinions on the situation?

Yes, the runner from 3b needs a lecture from the head coach. How can you miss a base on a walk?

He is out of course.

[mightymoose_22]

Yes, 12 year olds.

This is the whole problem... we all know that if a runner misses a base he must go back and touch it or he may be called out.

The big difference here is that the runner was forced home on a walk. After missing home there is no other base to advance to... so as the rule is written he could not be called out since he did not try to advance a base. He did not make it to the dugout, the ball was still live on the BB, and yes they made a play on him. But, since he could not advance another base can they make a play on him if he was forced in on the walk?

I can't find a clear rule for the situation. As I just said, the closest rule states that if the runner advances to toward the next base then he loses his protection... but there is no base after home... so does he lose his protection or not?

[DG]

Originally Posted by PWL

I would have to say he would be allowed to go back and touch home if he hadn't entered the dugout without a play being made on him. If he entered the dugout, the defense may make a proper appeal that the runner missed the base.

I'm assuming this was a young age group.

"His coaches get his attention before he reaches the dugout and he hurries back toward the plate to tag it but he is first tagged with the ball."

I would have to say he is allowed to go back and touch, but in this case he was tagged out attempting to do so (a play being made on him).

[ncump7]

MMoose..
Are you saying that the runner could just leave third and walk directly into the dugout without liability to be put out? I think his protected status ends when he passes the plate and does not touch. It is much the same as the BR on a base on balls. He is protected only to the base.

[greymule]

How can you miss a base on a walk?

In Fed a few years ago, I had a runner fail to touch home after being forced in on a walk. He stopped five feet in front of the plate, picked up the bat, and went directly to his bench. The catcher didn't notice, but the defensive coach saw it from the dugout, so they got the out on appeal.

[mightymoose_22]

Originally Posted by ncump7

MMoose..
Are you saying that the runner could just leave third and walk directly into the dugout without liability to be put out? I think his protected status ends when he passes the plate and does not touch. It is much the same as the BR on a base on balls. He is protected only to the base.

No... the runner MUST touch home. The question is when his protection ends when forced on a walk. Since he is not advancing toward the next base (because there isn't one) it seems he should still be protected. Should he not touch home and enter the dugout, then the defense can put him out on appeal. As I am seeing it, protection ends when you progress toward the next base, and in this case he would still be protected after passing home since there is not another base.

Here is the exact wording from my 2007 little league rule book... a note to rule 7.04:
"When a runner is entitled to a base without liability to be put out, while the ball is in play, or under any rule which the ball is in play after the runner reaches an entitled base, and the runner fails to touch the base to which that runner is entitled BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT BASE, the runner shall forfeit the exemption from liability to be put out and may be put out by tagging the base or by tagging the runner before that runner returns to the missed base."

MY whole point is... if there was no attempt to advance to the next base (because there isn't one), he can't be put out. The defense in this case would have to wait a moment and then appeal once the player is in the dugout.

The difference with a BR advancing to first on a walk is that he CAN advance toward the next base and lose that protection.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mightymoose_22

No... the runner MUST touch home. The question is when his protection ends when forced on a walk. Since he is not advancing toward the next base (because there isn't one) it seems he should still be protected. Should he not touch home and enter the dugout, then the defense can put him out on appeal. As I am seeing it, protection ends when you progress toward the next base, and in this case he would still be protected after passing home since there is not another base.

Here is the exact wording from my 2007 little league rule book... a note to rule 7.04:
"When a runner is entitled to a base without liability to be put out, while the ball is in play, or under any rule which the ball is in play after the runner reaches an entitled base, and the runner fails to touch the base to which that runner is entitled BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT BASE, the runner shall forfeit the exemption from liability to be put out and may be put out by tagging the base or by tagging the runner before that runner returns to the missed base."

MY whole point is... if there was no attempt to advance to the next base (because there isn't one), he can't be put out. The defense in this case would have to wait a moment and then appeal once the player is in the dugout.

The difference with a BR advancing to first on a walk is that he CAN advance toward the next base and lose that protection.

Mental masturbation with a loose grip.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by mightymoose_22

MY whole point is... if there was no attempt to advance to the next base (because there isn't one), he can't be put out. The defense in this case would have to wait a moment and then appeal once the player is in the dugout.

What if the defensive coach asked for "time" to visit with his F1, and it is
granted , before the runner has an opportunity to correct his mistake ?