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Old Sat Feb 02, 2013, 01:40pm
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Bases loaded walk...

... is R1 forced home or awarded home? I read this discussion here in the past, can't find it. Showed up on a quiz at my first meeting.

Bases loaded, 2 out. Ball 4, R1 trots home, R2 sprints to 3rd and rounds it, picked off at 3rd before R1 touches home plate. Run counts?
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Old Mon Feb 04, 2013, 10:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
... is R1 forced home or awarded home? I read this discussion here in the past, can't find it. Showed up on a quiz at my first meeting.

Bases loaded, 2 out. Ball 4, R1 trots home, R2 sprints to 3rd and rounds it, picked off at 3rd before R1 touches home plate. Run counts?
ASA, the run would not score. NCAA, the run scores. I'm not 100% positive, however I believe the NFHS ruling is the run scores.
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Old Mon Feb 04, 2013, 12:49pm
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Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
[...] I'm not 100% positive, however I believe the NFHS ruling is the run scores.
It does. Case play 9.1.1D: With two outs and R1, R2 and R3 on base, B6 receives ball four. R3 touches second and is then tagged off base for the third out before R1 has reached home base. RULING: The run scores; R1 was awarded home as soon as ball four was declared. (8-4-3a Effect; 9-1-1 Exception b)
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Old Mon Feb 04, 2013, 01:37pm
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(If anyone cares, this also has different rulings amongst the various baseball rulesets as well)
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Old Tue Feb 05, 2013, 01:23pm
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Thanks for the reply... any citation in ASA rules I can refer to on this? I got this answer marked wrong, & I did say 3 outs, no run scores.
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Old Tue Feb 05, 2013, 01:42pm
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Why is ASA different, philosophy or just incidental diff?
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Old Tue Feb 05, 2013, 01:51pm
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You're looking for a rule cite to prove a negative. 8-1-C says that when a batter receives four balls, she is awarded first base. 8-5-A says that runners may advance without liability to be put out when forced to vacate their base due to the batter receiving a base on balls.

You're not going to find a rule that says, runners are NOT awarded a base when forced to vacate their bases due to a batter receiving a base on balls.

Just that they are allowed to advance 1 base. Therefore, if someone gets out before a teammate crosses the plate, just like any other time in the game, the run does not score.
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Old Tue Feb 05, 2013, 01:53pm
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Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Why is ASA different, philosophy or just incidental diff?
The ASA ruling is self-consistent (as described in my last post). NCAA and FED rulings are not consistent with the rest of their rules.

So my question would be - why is everyone else different?
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Old Tue Feb 05, 2013, 01:58pm
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Exactly Mike, that's why my OP started with the force/award question. The test I took was PONY rules; I will check to see if PONY considers all the runners forced to advance. If so, then I can assume the same interp as ASA.
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Old Thu Feb 07, 2013, 04:33am
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Smile

Here is the ruling from the ISF.

R1’s run does not count. See ISF Rule 7 a “one run shall be scored each time a runner legally touches first, second, third bases and home plate before the third out of the inning.” Since R2 was picked off at 3rd base before R1 touched home plate, the run does not score.
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Old Thu Feb 07, 2013, 08:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Why is ASA different, philosophy or just incidental diff?
Because ASA rules award a base to the batter, not runners. Only runners forced may advance without liability to be put out, but ONLY to the base forced. Rules specifically note that the runner is in jeopardy should s/he attempt to advance beyond that base.

ASA rules also specifically note that a run cannot score after the 3rd out of the half inning has been executed.
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Old Thu Feb 07, 2013, 08:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob View Post
It does. Case play 9.1.1D: With two outs and R1, R2 and R3 on base, B6 receives ball four. R3 touches second and is then tagged off base for the third out before R1 has reached home base. RULING: The run scores; R1 was awarded home as soon as ball four was declared. (8-4-3a Effect; 9-1-1 Exception b)
I don't know why this NFHS case play cites 9-1-1 Exception b to justify the call. That Exception simply addresses that a run does not count if the third out is a force out. There is no force out in this case play, so citing it is bogus.

Also, 9-1-1 Exception f covers when a runner crosses the plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out. That's what happened here. If NFHS wants the run to score in this situation, it needs to have an Exception to this Exception so that it's clear, such as:

"f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out, unless that runner is forced home because the batter was awarded first base."
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Old Thu Feb 07, 2013, 02:52pm
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[QUOTE=Manny A;877630]
(snip)
it needs to have an Exception to this Exception so that it's clear, such as:
(snip)

"exception to this exception" I like that. ;-)
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Old Thu Feb 07, 2013, 05:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
I don't know why this NFHS case play cites 9-1-1 Exception b to justify the call. That Exception simply addresses that a run does not count if the third out is a force out. There is no force out in this case play, so citing it is bogus.

Also, 9-1-1 Exception f covers when a runner crosses the plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out. That's what happened here. If NFHS wants the run to score in this situation, it needs to have an Exception to this Exception so that it's clear, such as:

"f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out, unless that runner is forced home because the batter was awarded first base."
The OP is about a succeeding runner.
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Old Thu Feb 07, 2013, 06:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Because ASA rules award a base to the batter, not runners. Only runners forced may advance without liability to be put out, but ONLY to the base forced. Rules specifically note that the runner is in jeopardy should s/he attempt to advance beyond that base.

ASA rules also specifically note that a run cannot score after the 3rd out of the half inning has been executed.
Isn't "Only runners forced may advance without liability to be put out, but ONLY to the base forced" true in all codes?
.................................................. ..................

So R1 des not score because the third out occurred before R1 reached HP.
Still wonder if "philosophy or just incidental diff?"
.................................................. ..................

Also, for others, other codes also say a run cannot score after the 3rd out.
I guess I need to go to the books.
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