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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 05:59am
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Question Bases loaded walk

JV game. Bases loaded walk. Runner from 3rd does not touch home. She starts heading to their dugout on the 1st base side about 5 feet from home and cuts in front of home. About the time she gets to the on deck circle, the coach for the defense yells to for her team to touch home. The runner comes back to touch home but the defense throws home first (catcher steps on the plate and also tags the girl before she touches home). PU calls her out.

What rule?

On any other base on a walk, if you pass the bag "you are assumed to have touched it" and are liable to be put out, but how does that work for home plate?
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 08:55am
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Originally Posted by fdt92 View Post
JV game. Bases loaded walk. Runner from 3rd does not touch home. She starts heading to their dugout on the 1st base side about 5 feet from home and cuts in front of home. About the time she gets to the on deck circle, the coach for the defense yells to for her team to touch home. The runner comes back to touch home but the defense throws home first (catcher steps on the plate and also tags the girl before she touches home). PU calls her out.

What rule?

On any other base on a walk, if you pass the bag "you are assumed to have touched it" and are liable to be put out, but how does that work for home plate?
The same.
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 09:11am
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The umpire was wrong. The defensive coach was wrong and made the umpire wrong.

There are two possibly applicable rules, and neither was violated at that point.

1) 8-6-7 for failing to touch the base; must be properly appealed. It wasn't properly appealed, because on that awarded base, runners must be given an opportunity to complete their running obligations, and that opportunity does not end until either a) the runner stops on a different base (inapplicable here) or b) enters dead ball territory (didn't happen, according to the OP).

2) 8-6-19 for abandoning the base; not an appeal, the umpire must make this call if it applies. But it doesnt, the rule continues with "by entering dead ball territory". Again, didn't happen.

So, the coach tipped off the offense prematurely, and eliminated the opportunity to apply either rule. Runner should have been safe once she returned and touched the base because the appeal should not have been honored.
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 09:16am
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
The same.
Not the same. Runners are not liable to be put out after scoring. A live ball appeal at home should not have been allowed in this situation.
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 09:54am
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Ok I'm confused and will have to pull my book out when I get a chance....but to say a live ball appeal is not allowed in this case seems incorrect to me. How is this case any different than a runner that hook slides at home and misses the base? In that case we honor an F2 that live ball appeals the runner missing home why is it different just because this was a walk? They still have the requirement to legally touch the bases. I will try to pull the rule references when I get a chance but why are we considering this live ball appeal void?
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:00am
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A walk in fast pitch is a live ball, and any other runner who advances to the next base and goes past it is liable to be put out, so why not home?
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
The umpire was wrong. The defensive coach was wrong and made the umpire wrong.

There are two possibly applicable rules, and neither was violated at that point.

1) 8-6-7 for failing to touch the base; must be properly appealed. It wasn't properly appealed, because on that awarded base, runners must be given an opportunity to complete their running obligations, and that opportunity does not end until either a) the runner stops on a different base (inapplicable here) or b) enters dead ball territory (didn't happen, according to the OP).

2) 8-6-19 for abandoning the base; not an appeal, the umpire must make this call if it applies. But it doesnt, the rule continues with "by entering dead ball territory". Again, didn't happen.

So, the coach tipped off the offense prematurely, and eliminated the opportunity to apply either rule. Runner should have been safe once she returned and touched the base because the appeal should not have been honored.
Home was not the awarded base, AFA ASA is concerned. Fed is the opposite. Steve may be right in FED.
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:35am
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Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
It wasn't properly appealed, because on that awarded base, runners must be given an opportunity to complete their running obligations, and that opportunity does not end until either a) the runner stops on a different base (inapplicable here) or b) enters dead ball territory (didn't happen, according to the OP).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Not the same. Runners are not liable to be put out after scoring. A live ball appeal at home should not have been allowed in this situation.
Really?? That's news to me. I don't recall seeing anything that says a runner's obligation at home is different, and that she isn't subject to an appeal at home until she enters the dugout.

From the NFHS Case Book:

2.1 SITUATION: With R1 on third and one out, B3 hits safely. R1, while watching the ball, misses home plate. F2 calls for the ball, steps on home for the appeal to retire R1 and throws to third to get B3 sliding. RULING: Legal. A runner may be put out by the defense for missing a base during a live-ball appeal.

No reference there that an appeal of R1 cannot be recognized until R1 enters DBT. So what am I missing?
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:44am
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Goes to whether the runner is considered "awarded" home due to the walk, or forced due to the batter being awarded 1B (see the 1st thread below in "Similar Threads")
In the first case, I would not have her in jeopardy of being appealed until she enters DBT, in the second, I would rule on an appeal as soon as she passed home plate untouched.
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:03pm
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Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Goes to whether the runner is considered "awarded" home due to the walk, or forced due to the batter being awarded 1B (see the 1st thread below in "Similar Threads")
In the first case, I would not have her in jeopardy of being appealed until she enters DBT, in the second, I would rule on an appeal as soon as she passed home plate untouched.
Yes, this is the key distinction.

And, Fed's rule book is not completely clear, but as I read it, the BR is awarded 1B, and the other runners advance if forced (and, hence, their base is not an award). The other runners are not in jeopardy while advancing to the next base, but are in jeopardy if they advance beyond, and they are certainly in jeopardy of a missed base appeal should they attempt to advance beyond.

Quote:
NFHS 8-4 ART. 3 . . . A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when:

a. forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded first base.

EFFECT: (F.P.) The ball remains in play unless it is blocked. Any runner affected is entitled to one base and may advance farther at their own risk if the ball is in play.
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:14pm
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Passing the plate when forced to advance it is not like passing a base where another one is ahead.

Advance w/o liability means forced to score with not being able to be put out. BUT, that leaves us saying the runner could go straight to the dugout w/o touching home plate.
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:23pm
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Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
Yes, this is the key distinction.

And, Fed's rule book is not completely clear, but as I read it, the BR is awarded 1B, and the other runners advance if forced (and, hence, their base is not an award). The other runners are not in jeopardy while advancing to the next base, but are in jeopardy if they advance beyond, and they are certainly in jeopardy of a missed base appeal should they attempt to advance beyond.
I still don't see the difference whether or not the base is an awarded base or a forced-to base. Rule 8-3-11 says, "Awarded bases must be run legally." That implies to me that if a runner passes an awarded base and misses it, she is subject to a live ball appeal. And 8-3-4 says that passing a base is considered touching that base, even for awarded bases. Again, the implication to me is that a live ball appeal of the runner for passing and missing an awarded base is viable.

Say the batter-runner overruns first base on a walk, and misses the base in the process. If the defense appeals her miss by either tagging her or the base before she returns, is she not subject to an Out call? If not, why not? What rule protects her here? And if she is subject to an Out call, why wouldn't the same be true at any other base, including home?
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:51pm
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The base on balls is the red-headed stepchild in the family of base awards, since the ball remains live. In other base awards, a live ball appeal is not even a possibility and the umpire must allow the awarded runner to complete her base-running responsibilities before honoring an appeal.
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 01:11pm
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OK, so instead of a BB w/ bases loaded, the batter is HBP. Now we have a dead ball.

How much does that change this scenario assuming everything else remains the same?
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Old Wed Apr 16, 2014, 01:11pm
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I do understand the logic of both sides of this - and using logic alone, one could support either side of this argument, as TPTB have not defined this perfectly.

However, the interp I typed (and ATL typed) is the one we've been given from our higher ups.
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