Base on Balls Bases Loaded

For the kids · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 26, 2004, 08:35pm

Bases Loaded and Batter receives a base on balls. Umpire--who is behind pitcher on the mound--calls runner from third out for not touching home plate which if she did miss it not by much. Anyway the question is: Where in the rulebook does it say that this is the umpire's call and not up to the defensive team to appeal a missed base? Also where is the rule book does it negate section 5 rule which states: Base runners are entitled to advance without liabitlity to be put out: A:When forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded a base on balls? We had this situation where the umpire called the girl out without the defensive team appealing. This was an ISA umpire who made the call--I have always believed that in a missed base situation it was up to the defense to appeal the play and is it different on a base on balls where the ball is in the pitchers circle and there was no play being made. Even though it was ISA I would appreciate any/all feedback on this situation. Thanks.

TexBlue · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 26, 2004, 09:09pm

Welcome to the group.

You are correct. It is an appeal play. I don't do ISA, but I believe it is the same in all rule codes. Now, a long time ago, (before my blue days) it was a rule in Federation that the runner is out if they miss the base. No appeal needed. That changed quite a while back.

The liability to be put out refers to tags and force plays. Any missed bases, you can still be put out, but only after you have an appeal made, either live or dead.

Skahtboi · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 12:46pm

From the ISA rulebook:

The runner is out:

In running or sliding for home plate, she fails to touch home plate and make(sic) no attempt to return to the base, and a fielder holds the ball in her hands and appeals to the umpire for a decision.

Effect Section 8 F-I: These are appeal plays...yaddah yaddah yaddah.

Sounds like things in ISA are much the same as they are elsewhere, and in this case I would say the umpire blew the call, unless there was an appeal that you just didn't see or hear.

Skahtboi · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 12:48pm

Interesting though, as I was reading through the ISA rulebook I noticed that they have a position called the Base Burglar in SP and the Base Bandit in FP. (Both listed on the lineup card as BB).

SC Ump · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 12:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Skahtboi
... I noticed that they have a position called the Base Burglar...

There is a little bit of ISA interest in the upstate of SC. But I really don't know why it is popular. I would think the people would want to participate with a mainstream organization. The base burglar is about the only difference besides umpires wearing green shirts.

SC Ump · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 01:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by For the kids
... We had this situation where the umpire called the girl out without the defensive team appealing. This was an ISA umpire who made the call...

It is just my opinion... but when you have a niche organization like ISA, it might be difficult to get umpires with detailed knowledge of your organizations league. For example, I have only done one ISA tourney and it was only after some begging from the assignor. I do mostly high school and learned the ISA rule differences by showing up an hour early for the games and discussing the rules with another umpire. (I was loaned a green shirt, an ISA ball cap and a rule book.)

You will find that with the number of niche organization out there, fewer and fewer umpires are willing to buy multiple kinds of shirts and caps, and invest the time to learn multiple sets of rules, just because a league wants to have base burglars.

As mentioned in one of the other post, up until a couple of years ago, high school rules stated that this was not an appeal play but the umpire was to call it at the end of playing action. Perhaps you had an umpire that was only familiar with the old high school way of doing things.

So, what can be done? I would suggest that (especially if your league wants to stick with ISA) the coaches get a better understanding of how to properly protest a call. I believe that you are correct that in ISA, this is an appeal play. A properly executed protest by the coach would have probably had the call corrected.

[Edited by SC Ump on Jun 27th, 2004 at 02:23 PM]

Dakota · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 01:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by For the kids
Umpire--who is behind pitcher on the mound--

No "mound" in softball.

Was there also a plate umpire? Or was your single umpire calling the pitches from behind the pitcher's plate?

[Edited by Dakota on Jun 27th, 2004 at 02:34 PM]

For the kids · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 04:13pm

Yes You are correct. I should have stated pitcher's plate as she was the only umpire and was calling from behind the pitcher. It appeared to me that the back of my player's foot had touched the edge of the plate, although it was difficult to see from either of our positions as the plate was covered with dirt. From being an ASA umpire, coach and player I know my opinion didn't count but only the umpire's. I just didn't understand how she could make that call, on her own, from where she was standing and why. These kids are 10-12 years old and I stress the mechanics and rules of the game. They know it is very important to touch all the bases as we warm up every practice by running and touching all bases. I believe in letting the kids play the game and had she totally missed the base and just walked off the base perhaps I would have been able to understand the call. All of my kids were again instructed to touch the bases but to make sure they touch in the middle especially on a walk so there would not be a question next time. This play took us out of the inning and eventually out of the game. I know that one call does not determine the outcome and good teams should be able to overcome things like this. Prior to this call one of the opposing runners turned in at first after she had been thrown out and pushed our first baseperson as she was throwing to third to try to get an advancing runner and the ball went by the third baseperson allowing another run to score. The umpire said she saw her push here but said it was incidental contact--interference nonetheless as I saw it. Then to have a girl called out for not touching home on a walk without an appeal I was a bit frustrated.

whiskers_ump · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 27, 2004, 04:53pm

The umpire said she saw her push here but said it was incidental contact--

Sounds like interference to me.

ASA Rule 8-7J.3.
Runner interferes with a fielder attempting to throw
the ball.

Dakota · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 09:05am

If your umpire was calling from behind the pitcher's plate, then this was most likely not a well-trained umpire.

You were getting a collection of myths and ah hoc rules being enforced.

You might look around to see if there is a more serious league your team could join in the future.

Dakota · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 09:07am

Quote:

Originally posted by For the kids
Yes You are correct. I should have stated pitcher's plate as she was the only umpire and was calling from behind the pitcher.

Sorry, I meant to put a smiley after my comment about the mound. It was meant as just a good humored poke.

CecilOne · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 10:47am

Also sounds like not observing "never guess an out".

But at least now I know there is an ISA and it's not just a typo of ASA or ISF

. Why do we need another one?

Dukat · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 11:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
Also sounds like not observing "never guess an out".

But at least now I know there is an ISA and it's not just a typo of ASA or ISF . Why do we need another one?

Because no one was using green shirts and some umpires think green makes them look better

For the kids · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 07:09pm

Thanks Tom--Being new to the page I missed it. And thanks for the welcome TexBlue. Thanks for all your input on this. Our league has an infamous saying, "We've always done it that way" and I guess in their mind that makes it right. I love the game-playing,umpiring and now coaching. But this coaching thing is the most frustrating thing ever. So many coaches/parents are in it for themselves and will do anything for the all mighty win,which I am sure you all are quite aware of. Another team in our league has a "crow hopper" who is in 7th grade and wild as hell. She has literally knocked girls off their feet when she hits them (from the 36 feet or so where she is releasing the ball). Their reply to this was "You know after all she in 7th grade" for whatever that means. All I know is the little girl laying beside home plate is only 10 and scared to death to bat off her again. There are even replant marks in the dirt to show where she is landing and then releasing after her jump. I was told because she wasn't doing it everytime that she was dragging some of the time it was okay (and the 7th grade part). It was funny because there were 2 holes where her feet were landing but nothing between the pitching plate and the first hole where she was suppossedly dragging to. I didn't need the marks in the ground to tell me that her feet were in the air before releasing. Her release point was after she landed which was approx. 3-4 feet in front of the pitching plate. Does this sound like a legal release in any female league that anyone knows? Any suggestions if it is illegal--do you protest the game from the time she starts pitching or is it a judgement call that you can't protest? We have had girls called for this but it was in the league above us--8th-12th Grade. Maybe 7th graders are exempt.

IRISHMAFIA · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 07:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by For the kids
Thanks Tom--Being new to the page I missed it. And thanks for the welcome TexBlue. Thanks for all your input on this. Our league has an infamous saying, "We've always done it that way" and I guess in their mind that makes it right. I love the game-playing,umpiring and now coaching. But this coaching thing is the most frustrating thing ever. So many coaches/parents are in it for themselves and will do anything for the all mighty win,which I am sure you all are quite aware of. Another team in our league has a "crow hopper" who is in 7th grade and wild as hell. She has literally knocked girls off their feet when she hits them (from the 36 feet or so where she is releasing the ball). Their reply to this was "You know after all she in 7th grade" for whatever that means. All I know is the little girl laying beside home plate is only 10 and scared to death to bat off her again. There are even replant marks in the dirt to show where she is landing and then releasing after her jump. I was told because she wasn't doing it everytime that she was dragging some of the time it was okay (and the 7th grade part). It was funny because there were 2 holes where her feet were landing but nothing between the pitching plate and the first hole where she was suppossedly dragging to. I didn't need the marks in the ground to tell me that her feet were in the air before releasing. Her release point was after she landed which was approx. 3-4 feet in front of the pitching plate. Does this sound like a legal release in any female league that anyone knows? Any suggestions if it is illegal--do you protest the game from the time she starts pitching or is it a judgement call that you can't protest? We have had girls called for this but it was in the league above us--8th-12th Grade. Maybe 7th graders are exempt.

That's okay, I called an IP on a 10 yo playing up to the 12U level, she started crying and the coach hollers at me and all I did was tell the coach why it was an IP.

Of course, I was then informed that an IP may be a ball on the batter, but the runners are never moved up, so I must have been making up my own rules. It was also my fault the girl was crying because she was only 10 and I put myself in her head. BTW, coach's daughter who couldn't pitch with her feet on the ground if her life depended upon it.