Bases loaded walk

[fdt92]

JV game. Bases loaded walk. Runner from 3rd does not touch home. She starts heading to their dugout on the 1st base side about 5 feet from home and cuts in front of home. About the time she gets to the on deck circle, the coach for the defense yells to for her team to touch home. The runner comes back to touch home but the defense throws home first (catcher steps on the plate and also tags the girl before she touches home). PU calls her out.

What rule?

On any other base on a walk, if you pass the bag "you are assumed to have touched it" and are liable to be put out, but how does that work for home plate?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by fdt92

JV game. Bases loaded walk. Runner from 3rd does not touch home. She starts heading to their dugout on the 1st base side about 5 feet from home and cuts in front of home. About the time she gets to the on deck circle, the coach for the defense yells to for her team to touch home. The runner comes back to touch home but the defense throws home first (catcher steps on the plate and also tags the girl before she touches home). PU calls her out.

What rule?

On any other base on a walk, if you pass the bag "you are assumed to have touched it" and are liable to be put out, but how does that work for home plate?

The same.

[AtlUmpSteve]

The umpire was wrong. The defensive coach was wrong and made the umpire wrong.

There are two possibly applicable rules, and neither was violated at that point.

1) 8-6-7 for failing to touch the base; must be properly appealed. It wasn't properly appealed, because on that awarded base, runners must be given an opportunity to complete their running obligations, and that opportunity does not end until either a) the runner stops on a different base (inapplicable here) or b) enters dead ball territory (didn't happen, according to the OP).

2) 8-6-19 for abandoning the base; not an appeal, the umpire must make this call if it applies. But it doesnt, the rule continues with "by entering dead ball territory". Again, didn't happen.

So, the coach tipped off the offense prematurely, and eliminated the opportunity to apply either rule. Runner should have been safe once she returned and touched the base because the appeal should not have been honored.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The umpire was wrong. The defensive coach was wrong and made the umpire wrong.

There are two possibly applicable rules, and neither was violated at that point.

1) 8-6-7 for failing to touch the base; must be properly appealed. It wasn't properly appealed, because on that awarded base, runners must be given an opportunity to complete their running obligations, and that opportunity does not end until either a) the runner stops on a different base (inapplicable here) or b) enters dead ball territory (didn't happen, according to the OP).

2) 8-6-19 for abandoning the base; not an appeal, the umpire must make this call if it applies. But it doesnt, the rule continues with "by entering dead ball territory". Again, didn't happen.

So, the coach tipped off the offense prematurely, and eliminated the opportunity to apply either rule. Runner should have been safe once she returned and touched the base because the appeal should not have been honored.

Home was not the awarded base, AFA ASA is concerned. Fed is the opposite. Steve may be right in FED.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

The same.

Not the same. Runners are not liable to be put out after scoring. A live ball appeal at home should not have been allowed in this situation.

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok I'm confused and will have to pull my book out when I get a chance....but to say a live ball appeal is not allowed in this case seems incorrect to me. How is this case any different than a runner that hook slides at home and misses the base? In that case we honor an F2 that live ball appeals the runner missing home why is it different just because this was a walk? They still have the requirement to legally touch the bases. I will try to pull the rule references when I get a chance but why are we considering this live ball appeal void?

[RKBUmp]

A walk in fast pitch is a live ball, and any other runner who advances to the next base and goes past it is liable to be put out, so why not home?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It wasn't properly appealed, because on that awarded base, runners must be given an opportunity to complete their running obligations, and that opportunity does not end until either a) the runner stops on a different base (inapplicable here) or b) enters dead ball territory (didn't happen, according to the OP).

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Not the same. Runners are not liable to be put out after scoring. A live ball appeal at home should not have been allowed in this situation.

Really?? That's news to me. I don't recall seeing anything that says a runner's obligation at home is different, and that she isn't subject to an appeal at home until she enters the dugout.

From the NFHS Case Book:

2.1 SITUATION: With R1 on third and one out, B3 hits safely. R1, while watching the ball, misses home plate. F2 calls for the ball, steps on home for the appeal to retire R1 and throws to third to get B3 sliding. RULING: Legal. A runner may be put out by the defense for missing a base during a live-ball appeal.

No reference there that an appeal of R1 cannot be recognized until R1 enters DBT. So what am I missing?

[jmkupka]

Goes to whether the runner is considered "awarded" home due to the walk, or forced due to the batter being awarded 1B (see the 1st thread below in "Similar Threads")
In the first case, I would not have her in jeopardy of being appealed until she enters DBT, in the second, I would rule on an appeal as soon as she passed home plate untouched.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Goes to whether the runner is considered "awarded" home due to the walk, or forced due to the batter being awarded 1B (see the 1st thread below in "Similar Threads")
In the first case, I would not have her in jeopardy of being appealed until she enters DBT, in the second, I would rule on an appeal as soon as she passed home plate untouched.

Yes, this is the key distinction.

And, Fed's rule book is not completely clear, but as I read it, the BR is awarded 1B, and the other runners advance if forced (and, hence, their base is not an award). The other runners are not in jeopardy while advancing to the next base, but are in jeopardy if they advance beyond, and they are certainly in jeopardy of a missed base appeal should they attempt to advance beyond.

NFHS 8-4 ART. 3 . . . A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when:

a. forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded first base.

EFFECT: (F.P.) The ball remains in play unless it is blocked. Any runner affected is entitled to one base and may advance farther at their own risk if the ball is in play.

[chapmaja]

This is sort of a poorly worded section in the rulebook in my opinion, HOWEVER, 8-1-1 situation F does cover a play involving a bases loaded walk.

In the situation, a player is thrown out after rounding a base, but before R1 touches home.

The comments states, that the R1 is AWARDED home, therefore the run would count even if a runner was thrown out after passing a base they had been awarded.

The rules also say a runner has to run awarded bases properly though.

[shagpal]

what reason did the PU provide to call the runner out?

Originally Posted by fdt92

JV game. Bases loaded walk. Runner from 3rd does not touch home. She starts heading to their dugout on the 1st base side about 5 feet from home and cuts in front of home. About the time she gets to the on deck circle, the coach for the defense yells to for her team to touch home. The runner comes back to touch home but the defense throws home first (catcher steps on the plate and also tags the girl before she touches home). PU calls her out.

What rule?

On any other base on a walk, if you pass the bag "you are assumed to have touched it" and are liable to be put out, but how does that work for home plate?

[MD Longhorn]

To my mind, ASA has this one right, where FED does not. But given that the OP was FED, the runner from 3rd is AWARDED home (chap posts one of the places that shows FED feels this way), and on an award the runner must be given the opportunity to fix baserunning mistakes.

In ASA, this is clearly an out.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

To my mind, ASA has this one right, where FED does not. But given that the OP was FED, the runner from 3rd is AWARDED home (chap posts one of the places that shows FED feels this way), and on an award the runner must be given the opportunity to fix baserunning mistakes.

In ASA, this is clearly an out.

There are several rules in play on this call.

First, as stated from the CB play, the player is awarded home plate because she was forced to advance on the award of first for a Base on balls.

Second, rule 8-3-4 states that when a runner has based a base, she is said to have touched it. It specifically adds "This also applies to awarded bases".


Third, the fact that a base on balls is a live ball in fast pitch.


Fourth, A live ball appeal is allowed for a runner missing a base.

This leads me to this conclusion: Since the awarded base was passed by the runner she is said to have touched the base, and since the ball is live after a base on balls an appeal on her missing the base can be granted as soon as she missed home plate, thus the umpire was correct in ruling the runner out on a live ball appeal.

This play is different than the case play in that in the case play, the out was made on a different runner, who arrived at and passed the base she was awarded and was then tagged out. In the case play, the runner awarded home had not yet touched home plate. A timing play can't occur on a player who is awarded he base, so the out counts, but since home was an award, the run counts as well.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

...A timing play can't occur on a player who is awarded he base, so the out counts, but since home was an award, the run counts as well.

That is illogical. Either the run scores (in which case the runner cannot be declared out), or the runner is declared out and the run does not score. A run cannot be scored by a runner who is out.