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Old Thu May 16, 2013, 03:22pm
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Bases loaded Homer, Missed Base, Runs?

Exploring a nuance in the rules and came up with a disagreement here. 4 situations. Both Fed and ASA rulings please.

A) 2 outs, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. BR misses first base and is properly appealed after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

B) 2 outs, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. R3 misses second base and is properly appealed after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

C) 1 out, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. BR misses first base and R3 misses second base. Defense properly appeals R3, and then BR after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

D) 1 out, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. BR misses first base and R3 misses second base. Defense properly appeals BR, and then R3 after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?
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Old Thu May 16, 2013, 05:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Exploring a nuance in the rules and came up with a disagreement here. 4 situations. Both Fed and ASA rulings please.

A) 2 outs, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. BR misses first base and is properly appealed after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

B) 2 outs, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. R3 misses second base and is properly appealed after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

C) 1 out, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. BR misses first base and R3 misses second base. Defense properly appeals R3, and then BR after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

D) 1 out, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. BR misses first base and R3 misses second base. Defense properly appeals BR, and then R3 after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?
OK I'll play.

I believe A) B) and C) are same rulings in both ASA and NFHS

A) No runs score as third out was made by BR before touching 1B.

B) No runs score as third out was made by runner forced to advance because batter became a BR.

C) No runes score as third out was made by BR before touching 1B.

D) is the tricky one.

ASA 5.5.B.1 specifically says the force on an appeal play is determined at the time of the appeal not the time of the infraction (missing the base). So while R3 was being forced to 2B at the time she missed 2B, by the time the defense made the appeal the BR had been put out removing the force. The appeal of R3 becomes a time play not a force play so the runs by R1 and R2 score.

NHFS 9.1.1 does not include the verbiage about when the force is determined (time of infraction or time of appeal) and the casebook plays support the interp that since R3 was forced to 2B at the time she missed 2B this appeal is considered a force play and as the third out no runs score. I think we discussed this ASA/NFHS difference about a month ago but I can't find the thread now.

And I have to leave for the ballpark!
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 08:19am
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Those answer are exactly what I was trying to convey to someone else.

Anyone else have any reason to disagree?
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 09:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Anyone else have any reason to disagree?
I'll try to think of something.
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 10:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Exploring a nuance in the rules and came up with a disagreement here. 4 situations. Both Fed and ASA rulings please.

A) 2 outs, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. BR misses first base and is properly appealed after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

B) 2 outs, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. R3 misses second base and is properly appealed after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

C) 1 out, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. BR misses first base and R3 misses second base. Defense properly appeals R3, and then BR after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

D) 1 out, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. BR misses first base and R3 misses second base. Defense properly appeals BR, and then R3 after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?
My take:

A) 0 runs, third out was a force out.

B) 0 runs, third out was a force out.

C) 0 runs, third out was a force out.

D) I would say 2 runs score, R1, and R2. B-R is out for failing to touch 1b, then R3 is out for failing to touch 2nd base. Due to a preceding runner being retired (B-R), R3 is out, but this is not a force out. I would then be hearing both coach out complaining about the situation.
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 10:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
D) I would say 2 runs score, R1, and R2. B-R is out for failing to touch 1b, then R3 is out for failing to touch 2nd base. Due to a preceding runner being retired (B-R), R3 is out, but this is not a force out. I would then be hearing both coach out complaining about the situation.
You work FED, if memory serves... Assuming that, what rules basis do you use to rule R3 as not a force, thus scoring the runs?

(If you only meant ASA, I agree with you).
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 10:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
My take:

D) I would say 2 runs score, R1, and R2. B-R is out for failing to touch 1b, then R3 is out for failing to touch 2nd base. Due to a preceding runner being retired (B-R), R3 is out, but this is not a force out. I would then be hearing both coach out complaining about the situation.
Which rule set are you answering about?
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 10:13am
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Originally Posted by UmpireErnie View Post
OK I'll play.

I believe A) B) and C) are same rulings in both ASA and NFHS

A) No runs score as third out was made by BR before touching 1B.

B) No runs score as third out was made by runner forced to advance because batter became a BR.

C) No runes score as third out was made by BR before touching 1B.

D) is the tricky one.

ASA 5.5.B.1 specifically says the force on an appeal play is determined at the time of the appeal not the time of the infraction (missing the base). So while R3 was being forced to 2B at the time she missed 2B, by the time the defense made the appeal the BR had been put out removing the force. The appeal of R3 becomes a time play not a force play so the runs by R1 and R2 score.

NHFS 9.1.1 does not include the verbiage about when the force is determined (time of infraction or time of appeal) and the casebook plays support the interp that since R3 was forced to 2B at the time she missed 2B this appeal is considered a force play and as the third out no runs score. I think we discussed this ASA/NFHS difference about a month ago but I can't find the thread now.

And I have to leave for the ballpark!
I would look to the definition of a force out. When the B-R is retired on the force out, the force is removed on R3. I think in this situation, the timing of the appeals becomes critical. I do agree with that last part about leaving the ballpark. I can see both coaches out on the field arguing this one. I don't see anything in 9-1-1 exceptions that would apply to this situation. The key rule here to me is the definition of a force out. Since the B-R's out, even on appeal, is on a preceding runner, the out of R3 is no longer a force, thus the third out is simply an appeal out for missing the base.

Last edited by chapmaja; Fri May 17, 2013 at 10:19am.
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 10:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpireErnie View Post
(Snip)
NHFS 9.1.1 does not include the verbiage about when the force is determined (time of infraction or time of appeal) and the casebook plays support the interp that since R3 was forced to 2B at the time she missed 2B this appeal is considered a force play and as the third out no runs score. I think we discussed this ASA/NFHS difference about a month ago but I can't find the thread now.

And I have to leave for the ballpark!
Here is the text cut and pasted from the 2011 NFHS SB Case Book:
Quote:
9.1.1 SITUATION N: R1 is on second base, R2 on first base with one out. B4 hits safely to the outfield. R1 scores, R2 misses second base and is standing on third base when B4 is thrown out at second base. A dead-ball appeal is properly made on R2 for missing second base. The umpire rules R2 out for the third out.
Does R1's run count?
RULING: No. Since R2 was forced to advance to second base, the appealed out at second base was a force out. No runs can score if the third out of an inning is the result of a force out. (8-6-7; 9-1-1 Exception b; 2-1)
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 10:20am
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Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Which rule set are you answering about?
Fed.
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 10:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoTafurst View Post
Here is the text cut and pasted from the 2011 NFHS SB Case Book:
This is interesting. I can see this both ways. Certainly the rule about a force out is in play, but at the same time I do see this being a situation where the rule should be that both are considered force outs, thus no runs score.

It's too bad the rules for Fed don't cover this very clearly, as I can see something like this being a situation that could occur. Lord knows, I've already had a bunch of missed base appeals this season.
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 10:25am
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Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
I would look to the definition of a force out. When the B-R is retired on the force out, the force is removed on R3. I think in this situation, the timing of the appeals becomes critical. I do agree with that last part about leaving the ballpark. I can see both coaches out on the field arguing this one. I don't see anything in 9-1-1 exceptions that would apply to this situation. The key rule here to me is the definition of a force out. Since the B-R's out, even on appeal, is on a preceding runner, the out of R3 is no longer a force, thus the third out is simply an appeal out for missing the base.
(see my addition to Umpire Ernie's comment with the exact wording from the NFHS Case Book (2011).

Quote:
9.1.1 SITUATION N: R1 is on second base, R2 on first base with one out. B4 hits safely to the outfield. R1 scores, R2 misses second base and is standing on third base when B4 is thrown out at second base. A dead-ball appeal is properly made on R2 for missing second base. The umpire rules R2 out for the third out.
Does R1's run count?
RULING: No. Since R2 was forced to advance to second
base, the appealed out at second base was a force out. No runs can score if the third out of an inning is the result of a force out. (8-6-7; 9-1-1 Exception b; 2-1)
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 10:29am
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
You work FED, if memory serves... Assuming that, what rules basis do you use to rule R3 as not a force, thus scoring the runs?

(If you only meant ASA, I agree with you).
Definition of a force out. Rule 2-24-2 For a given runner, the force play ends as the runner touches the next base, or the following runner is put out.

In this case, the appeal of the B-R for missing first base was an out by the following runner, which under this rule removes the force on R3. R3 thus would be out for missing 2nd base.

I think this is a case where the Fed rules need to be clearer to be honest.
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 10:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoTafurst View Post
(see my addition to Umpire Ernie's comment with the exact wording from the NFHS Case Book (2011).
There is a difference between the case play and this play, that I'm not sure if it makes a difference or not.

In this case, the following runner is put out for missing first base. While not technically a force out, this removes the force play on F3 per the defintition of a force play.

Think of it this way. What if we had this situation instead. Bases loaded, B4 hits a slow roller to F3. F3 fields, touches 1st base (retiring the B-R), then throws to second trying to get R3. The throw sails into the outfield, and R1, R2, and R3 all score. The defense then appeals that R3 missed second base. Because the following runner had been put out, there is no force. R3 is out for missing the base.

This seems to be a clarity of the rules issue. I personally think the ASA rule on this is clearer and is correct, and once again Fed has rules (as they do with many sports), that are not as clear as they could be.

As I have said, I can see both sides on this. I think the case play, even though it isn't the exact same ruling, makes sense. I also think it is inconsistent with the definition of the force play in 2-24.
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Old Fri May 17, 2013, 10:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
I think this is a case where the Fed rules need to be clearer to be honest.
Probably, but the NFHS ruling is
"NHFS 9.1.1 does not include the verbiage about when the force is determined (time of infraction or time of appeal) and the casebook plays support the interp that since R3 was forced to 2B at the time she missed 2B this appeal is considered a force play and as the third out no runs score."
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