Use the Force?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So, correct me if I'm wrong. All are pretty much in agreement that the run scores on this play, at least in ASA, since:

1. The runner is assumed to have touched second base when she passed it, removing the force
2. The tag of the runner attempting to return to second base is not considered an appeal
3. There is no opportunity to subsequently appeal her miss of second base for an advantageous fourth out

Now, consider a similar play, except that the play is on the BR at first. On the play, F6's throw to first is offline, and the BR avoids F3's tag attempt after F3 catches the errant throw. While she avoids the tag, the BR fails to touch first base while passing it. The BR is unable to return to the bag before F3 tags her. R1 at third touches home well before the tag of the BR.

If I understand RS#1 in the ASA book, the tag of the BR missing first is considered an appeal, and the run would not score, correct?

If that's the case, why the inconsistency between similar plays?

Because on the play at 2nd, it's not obviously an appeal --- as there is another perfectly valid reason to be tagging the runner... she's off the base and liable to be put out. Nothing make it clear that the fielder is appealing the miss, but rather she's simply tagging a player.

At first, the runner is NOT in jeopardy of a normal tag for overrunning the base, so the tag of that player IS obviously an appeal of the miss.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

..At first, the runner is NOT in jeopardy of a normal tag for overrunning the base, so the tag of that player IS obviously an appeal of the miss.

I'm going to disagree that the tag of the runner that missed first is an obvious appeal.

In order to honor an appeal, I better get some indication from the defense that is is an appeal and what they are appealing.

There are other reasons that the defensive player could be making that tag, pehaps the defense feels that the runner made an attempt to second base.

On this play, somebody on defense better give me some indication that they saw the runner miss first base and that is why they are making a tag.

[CecilOne]

Have to go with Andy on that.

[jmkupka]

If the tag is made (at 2B) before the run scores, and then, seconds later, F6 (who made the tag) states to me something to the effect that "you did see her completely miss the base, right?"... should that be upheld as an appeal?
Meaning, the statement is made after the run scores...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

If the tag is made (at 2B) before the run scores, and then, seconds later, F6 (who made the tag) states to me something to the effect that "you did see her completely miss the base, right?"... should that be upheld as an appeal?
Meaning, the statement is made after the run scores...

The kicker here, and I believe the question was, would the appeal be a valid fourth out appeal and, in ASA, it is not.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The kicker here, and I believe the question was, would the appeal be a valid fourth out appeal and, in ASA, it is not.

But in that case, would it be a fourth out or a third out.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

But in that case, would it be a fourth out or a third out.

Only if the defense makes it clear that they are tagging the runner to appeal the miss of second base, and not because she's simply off the base. And I don't see how they can do that in this situation, since the runner is scrambling back to the bag.

That's the fundamental problem with ASA not recognizing the advantageous fourth out for anyone other than the scoring runner. It essentially penalizes the defense for making tag plays during "unrelaxed" action that umpires would never recognize as appeals.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Only if the defense makes it clear that they are tagging the runner to appeal the miss of second base, and not because she's simply off the base. And I don't see how they can do that in this situation, since the runner is scrambling back to the bag.

That's the fundamental problem with ASA not recognizing the advantageous fourth out for anyone other than the scoring runner. It essentially penalizes the defense for making tag plays during "unrelaxed" action that umpires would never recognize as appeals.

I meant if we were counting it as a legit appeal, how many outs would there be?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

If the tag is made (at 2B) before the run scores, and then, seconds later, F6 (who made the tag) states to me something to the effect that "you did see her completely miss the base, right?"... should that be upheld as an appeal?
Meaning, the statement is made after the run scores...

Seconds after? No, I don't think so. Immediately after, I can see.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Seconds after? No, I don't think so. Immediately after, I can see.

I agree as long as immediate (milliseconds.......)........or while applying the tag.....then it is unmistakable......

I hate to use a BB term here.....but just tagging a runner who overslid a bag is not an appeal but an attempt at an out "during continuous action"......unless it includes some verbiage indicating it is an appeal.

Joel

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Because on the play at 2nd, it's not obviously an appeal --- as there is another perfectly valid reason to be tagging the runner... she's off the base and liable to be put out. Nothing make it clear that the fielder is appealing the miss, but rather she's simply tagging a player.

At first, the runner is NOT in jeopardy of a normal tag for overrunning the base, so the tag of that player IS obviously an appeal of the miss.

Playing devil's advocate.

Most, if not all, of the times that F3 would tag a BR (now R) that has overrun first base is to appeal an attempt to second. So, I don't think that appeal is obvious, at all; and if appealing the wrong thing, the appeal should be denied!!

How do you differentiate THAT appeal (where the run would score even if you honored it) from an appeal of a missed base (where the run would not score)? Don't you have to ask what F3 is appealing?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Playing devil's advocate.

Most, if not all, of the times that F3 would tag a BR (now R) that has overrun first base is to appeal an attempt to second. So, I don't think that appeal is obvious, at all; and if appealing the wrong thing, the appeal should be denied!!

How do you differentiate THAT appeal (where the run would score even if you honored it) from an appeal of a missed base (where the run would not score)? Don't you have to ask what F3 is appealing?

FWIW, I've always thought it was bogus to consider tagging a BR who made an attempt to go to second base as an appeal. Why not just consider it a normal tag play of a runner off the base? If it were really an appeal, then a tag of the runner or the base should be honored. But a tag of first base for a BR who attempted to advance to second is not going to retire that runner. And as you point out, honoring that appeal has no bearing on determining when runs score.

That said, tags of BRs overrunning first base almost always comes with some sort of comment by the defense. You'll either hear, "TAG HER! SHE TURNED FOR SECOND!" or "TAG HER! SHE MISSED THE BAG!" Wouldn't hearing the latter comment, and/or clearly seeing from the BR's reaction that she KNEW she missed the bag be enough to indicate the tag is an appeal?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Playing devil's advocate.

Most, if not all, of the times that F3 would tag a BR (now R) that has overrun first base is to appeal an attempt to second. So, I don't think that appeal is obvious, at all; and if appealing the wrong thing, the appeal should be denied!!

How do you differentiate THAT appeal (where the run would score even if you honored it) from an appeal of a missed base (where the run would not score)? Don't you have to ask what F3 is appealing?

I was replying to Manny, who had asked about appealing a batter who had missed first and why the difference between that and the OP. I agree that it must be obviously an appeal of a miss, and not just a guess that the runner had made a move to second (or heaven forbid, TURNED LEFT instead of right).