Use the Force?

[MrRabbit]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

They can't, if it is a force.

And isn't that what you have at second base in the OP?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

And isn't that what you have at second base in the OP?

No, not if the runner physically passed the base.

Think of it this way, if the runner rounded 2B without touching it and was tagged out, would it then be a force then?

[MrRabbit]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, not if the runner physically passed the base.

Think of it this way, if the runner rounded 2B without touching it and was tagged out, would it then be a force then?

No. But the post said...

But she over slides the base (failing to touch the bag at all and is tagged out before getting back to the bag.

I said that this a force for the third out and no run would be scored.

Some of the posters when stating that this would not be a force, I did not say that.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Manny A

If I'm not mistaken, in softball, unlike baseball, the advantageous fourth out may only be recorded on the scoring runner.

For example, let's say on this play, the runner going to second did tag second base, but then overslid the bag and was tagged for the third out. On the play, R1 from third passed home before the tag (time play), but she missed home plate. The defense may appeal the miss of home for the advantageous fourth out.

So I'm not sure you can have an advantageous fourth out here. What you may have (which is the crux of MD's question) is that the out at second is still a force out to negate the run. I'm not sure what the answer is on that one.

This reminds me of a discussion on eteamz once....Appeal vs. Play?

The runner has missed second. Is the tag of her an appeal of a missed base or a play on a runner who has missed the bag.

Rita

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

Have not done NCAA in years and do not have an old book...

But I am not buying it that you can score a rule on the 3rd out when it is a force.

I don't know softball rules as well as I know baseball rules but the question would be whether or not it is a force. The runner has gone past the bag without touching.

Is the tag of the runner an appeal (which can't be accidental at first why should it be at second?) or a play on a runner who is assumed to have touched second? If it is a play on the runner, then it is a timing play and the run scores.

If it is an appeal of a missed base, then the run will not score.

Rita

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

No. But the post said...

But she over slides the base (failing to touch the bag at all and is tagged out before getting back to the bag.

I said that this a force for the third out and no run would be scored.

Some of the posters when stating that this would not be a force, I did not say that.

You asked if the OP was a force and my response was no.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

No. But the post said...

But she over slides the base (failing to touch the bag at all and is tagged out before getting back to the bag.

I said that this a force for the third out and no run would be scored.

Some of the posters when stating that this would not be a force, I did not say that.

Once he passes the base the force is off.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

No. But the post said...

But she over slides the base (failing to touch the bag at all and is tagged out before getting back to the bag.

I said that this a force for the third out and no run would be scored.

Some of the posters when stating that this would not be a force, I did not say that.

See ASA 8-3-B

When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to
have touched that base. This also applies to awarded bases.

I know it has been said by others but I will reiterate.....If the runner slid past 2nd....they are considered to have touched the base.

Joel

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Gulf Coast Blue

See ASA 8-3-B

When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to
have touched that base. This also applies to awarded bases.

I know it has been said by others but I will reiterate.....If the runner slid past 2nd....they are considered to have touched the base.

Joel

So, correct me if I'm wrong. All are pretty much in agreement that the run scores on this play, at least in ASA, since:

1. The runner is assumed to have touched second base when she passed it, removing the force
2. The tag of the runner attempting to return to second base is not considered an appeal
3. There is no opportunity to subsequently appeal her miss of second base for an advantageous fourth out

Now, consider a similar play, except that the play is on the BR at first. On the play, F6's throw to first is offline, and the BR avoids F3's tag attempt after F3 catches the errant throw. While she avoids the tag, the BR fails to touch first base while passing it. The BR is unable to return to the bag before F3 tags her. R1 at third touches home well before the tag of the BR.

If I understand RS#1 in the ASA book, the tag of the BR missing first is considered an appeal, and the run would not score, correct?

If that's the case, why the inconsistency between similar plays?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So, correct me if I'm wrong. All are pretty much in agreement that the run scores on this play, at least in ASA, since:

1. The runner is assumed to have touched second base when she passed it, removing the force
2. The tag of the runner attempting to return to second base is not considered an appeal
3. There is no opportunity to subsequently appeal her miss of second base for an advantageous fourth out

Now, consider a similar play, except that the play is on the BR at first. On the play, F6's throw to first is offline, and the BR avoids F3's tag attempt after F3 catches the errant throw. While she avoids the tag, the BR fails to touch first base while passing it. The BR is unable to return to the bag before F3 tags her. R1 at third touches home well before the tag of the BR.

If I understand RS#1 in the ASA book, the tag of the BR missing first is considered an appeal, and the run would not score, correct?

If that's the case, why the inconsistency between similar plays?

Because on the play at 2nd, it's not obviously an appeal --- as there is another perfectly valid reason to be tagging the runner... she's off the base and liable to be put out. Nothing make it clear that the fielder is appealing the miss, but rather she's simply tagging a player.

At first, the runner is NOT in jeopardy of a normal tag for overrunning the base, so the tag of that player IS obviously an appeal of the miss.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

..At first, the runner is NOT in jeopardy of a normal tag for overrunning the base, so the tag of that player IS obviously an appeal of the miss.

I'm going to disagree that the tag of the runner that missed first is an obvious appeal.

In order to honor an appeal, I better get some indication from the defense that is is an appeal and what they are appealing.

There are other reasons that the defensive player could be making that tag, pehaps the defense feels that the runner made an attempt to second base.

On this play, somebody on defense better give me some indication that they saw the runner miss first base and that is why they are making a tag.

[CecilOne]

Have to go with Andy on that.

[jmkupka]

If the tag is made (at 2B) before the run scores, and then, seconds later, F6 (who made the tag) states to me something to the effect that "you did see her completely miss the base, right?"... should that be upheld as an appeal?
Meaning, the statement is made after the run scores...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

If the tag is made (at 2B) before the run scores, and then, seconds later, F6 (who made the tag) states to me something to the effect that "you did see her completely miss the base, right?"... should that be upheld as an appeal?
Meaning, the statement is made after the run scores...

The kicker here, and I believe the question was, would the appeal be a valid fourth out appeal and, in ASA, it is not.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The kicker here, and I believe the question was, would the appeal be a valid fourth out appeal and, in ASA, it is not.

But in that case, would it be a fourth out or a third out.