ASA obstruction

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by David Emerling
... snip ... Oddly, NFHS high school rules also allow the play to continue (like ASA), but the runner is ALWAYS going to be awarded the NEXT base. ... snip ...

Not so, unless between home and 1st.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by Skahtboi
First of all, David, the way that Mike described is the way that obstruction is enforced in every code that I work, which is ASA, NFHS, USSSA and Dixie. (Though Dixie actually wants the umpire to drop a flag when it occurs to denote the delayed dead ball, most umpires use the "normal" delayed dead ball signal.)

I have read and reread this thread, and do not understand what is so difficult about the application of this rule. If a runner is obstructed, she is awarded the base to which the umpire felt she would have made had the obstruction not occurred. What is so difficult about this? Killing the ball right then and there has the potential to punish the offense, which is the side that has been offended, in much the same way that you do not kill the ball immediately on an illegal pitch. (Which is in the event that the batter hits the ball, and could possibly gain more than the penalty prescribes.)

Scott

After having it explained, I completely understand how ASA signals and penalizes obstruction on rundowns. You seem to think I don't understand it. I do. I think you're confusing my disagreeing with misunderstanding.

I was simply taking a bit of an incredulous attitude pointing out that ASA isn quite unique in that they allow the play to continue *and* have the option of awarding the obstructed runner to *either* of the bases. Since the umpire does not announce the awarded base along with the infraction (or does he?), the defense is forced to continue playing on the runner to prevent her from scoring (in the event the awarded base is 3rd), and while that is going on ... ultimately, the runner is immune from being put out.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[CecilOne]

Given the earlier comments about "ASA, NFHS, USSSA and Dixie", also PONY and NCAA; I don't see how
"ASA isn quite unique in that they allow the play to continue *and* have the option of awarding the obstructed runner to *either* of the bases"

(Reworded 5/9)

[Edited by CecilOne on May 9th, 2003 at 08:07 AM]

[whiskers_ump]

Hmmmm,

All this yelling reminds me of another site.

Maybe David was BDB.

glen

[Roger Greene]

And Mike fussed at me when all I did was point out that Pony has a special rule for rundowns, without making any comment about ASA or Fed!!

Bid Grin.

Roger Greene

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
And Mike fussed at me when all I did was point out that Pony has a special rule for rundowns, without making any comment about ASA or Fed!!

Bid Grin.

Roger Greene

Did not! Did not! DID NOT!!!

Well, maybe just a little. All I did was point out that I don't agree with that particular result of an obstruction call. I believe it makes umpires hesitate in making the proper call.

[ChampaignBlue]

This is a true story. I had a ball hit on the 1st base line clearly fair but the catcher yelled out "foul ball" and the BR turned to argue with me until he saw that I was emphatically pointing fair. The BR took off running again,I stuck out my left arm to indicate the delayed dead ball and the right fielder stopped chasing the ball. Ultimatly they got the ball back in but after the runner had made a wide turn of 3rd and thought twice about comming home. I awarded him home because his pause on the way to 1st was clearly the difference between his comming home or not. Naturally the defense argued that the right fielder stopped too but I pointed out to them that there's no rule to prevent you from obstructing a teammate. Would you have given him home at the time that the verbal obstruction occured? Yet a single,maybe double, turned into an inside the park home run and that is the reason we have a delayed dead ball, to give the offended team every opportunity to get what they can.

PS Mike I owe you an appology, when I first read your post above this I thought that you were admitting to being a little red faced until I looked at your graphic a little closer. Sorry about that.

[Edited by ChampaignBlue on May 8th, 2003 at 02:35 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by ChampaignBlue
This is a true story. I had a ball hit on the 1st base line clearly fair but the catcher yelled out "foul ball" and the BR turned to argue with me until he saw that I was emphatically pointing fair. The BR took off running again,I stuck out my left arm to indicate the delayed dead ball and the right fielder stopped chasing the ball. Ultimatly they got the ball back in but after the runner had made a wide turn of 3rd and thought twice about comming home. I awarded him home because his pause on the way to 1st was clearly the difference between his comming home or not. Naturally the defense argued that the right fielder stopped too but I pointed out to them that there's no rule to prevent you from obstructing a teammate. Would you have given him home at the time that the verbal obstruction occured? Yet a single,maybe double, turned into an inside the park home run and that is the reason we have a delayed dead ball, to give the offended team every opportunity to get what they can.

Been there, done that. Little blooper over 3B landed fair & catcher calls "foul". The BR immediately stopped, picked up his bat and returned to the plate while I was pointing fair. When he saw me, he start to 1B, but was late getting there. I awarded him 2B.

The coach went crazy. Once he stopped yapping, I turned to the catcher and asked if he wanted to tell his coach what happened. He told the coach it was his fault, not mine. I thanked the catcher and asked him to let me do my job in the future.

[ChampaignBlue]

Oddly enough my would be umpire is wearing the blue hat for the 1st time this year. Looking forward to working with him so I can remind him that he gets to yell it out now. Jim

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
Pony has a special obstruction rule for rundowns. A miniminum of an award to the next base. This adds a penalty for obstruction if occures with runner going back to last base.

Roger Greene

1) Just to emphasize that this is for rundowns only and that it is an immediate dead ball.
2) I tend to agree with Mike that it is contrary to the runner protection purpose of the rule and might penalize other runners for a fielder infraction. I guess it reflects the PONY half-hardball (like NFHS) mentality. I hope it's not because they don't trust umpires' judgement.
3) How do all of you handle a runner deliberately running into a fielder during a rundown to try to draw an obstruction call? Is that interference and does it matter what the fielder is doing at that instant?

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by CecilOne
Given the earlier comments about "ASA, NFHS, USSSA and Dixie", also PONY and NCAA; I don't see how
"ASA isn quite unique in that they allow the play to continue *and* have the option of awarding the obstructed runner to *either* of the bases"

(Reworded 5/9)

[Edited by CecilOne on May 9th, 2003 at 08:07 AM]

I meant to say that "ASA *is* quite unique" in that it is the only one that seems to apply the obstruction penalty in a rundown in this manner.

I can't think of any set of rules that would not award the obstructed runner the ADVANCED base while in a rundown, no matter which direction the runner was heading. Some sets of rules would kill the ball immediately and some would maintain a delayed dead ball.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Glen G]

Who is to say that although the runner was obstructed going back to third without that obstruction they may have headed back to home and scored.

Just because at that time they were heading to third doesn't mean they didn't have an intention to score. Otherwise they wouldn't have been between home and third to begin with.

Opinions please!

Glen G

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Glen G
Who is to say that although the runner was obstructed going back to third without that obstruction they may have headed back to home and scored.

Just because at that time they were heading to third doesn't mean they didn't have an intention to score. Otherwise they wouldn't have been between home and third to begin with.

Opinions please!

Glen G

Because that is when the obstruction occured, returning to 3B and that is when you make your ruling.

Of course, the intention was to score, but they would not have scored. How do I know that? Because they wouldn't have ended up in a rundown if they could have scored!

Common sense. Read the rule, read the play which occurs and apply the rule only the the play you saw. Anything else requires tarot cards or tea leaves.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by David Emerling
... snip ...
I meant to say that "ASA *is* quite unique" in that it is the only one that seems to apply the obstruction penalty in a rundown in this manner.

I can't think of any set of rules that would not award the obstructed runner the ADVANCED base while in a rundown, no matter which direction the runner was heading. Some sets of rules would kill the ball immediately and some would maintain a delayed dead ball.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

See May 6th, 2003 04:29 PM by Skahtboi

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Did not! Did not! DID NOT!!!

Well, maybe just a little. All I did was point out that I don't agree with that particular result of an obstruction call. I believe it makes umpires hesitate in making the proper call.

Yes, but that would be a delayed dead under EVERY system of rules on this entire planet.

In the play you describe above, there was no direct play on the obstructed runner - so you *should* allow the ball to remain live.

Your example does not support the case for leaving the ball to remain live when there is *direct* play on an obstructed runner.

Let me ask you to solve this:

ASA. R1. Batter gets a hit into the outfield. R1 is obstructed by F4. The BU sees and signals the obstruction. R1 attempts to advance to 3rd and is thrown out by the slimmest margine. The PU makes the out call at 3rd. Then F5 sees that the BR is attempting to advance to 2nd and a throw is made in an attempt to stop that runner. The runner ends up in a lengthy rundown and is ultimately tagged out.

While the rundown was going on, what do you do if ...

(a) The runner who was called OUT at 3rd, leaves the field and enters her dugout - thinking she is out. Afterall, that's what the PU called her.

(b) or, the same runner trots home, touches the plate, picks up the bat of her teammate and enters her dugout? Count the run? Stand by for the world's biggest sh*tstorm from the defense. "But you called her OUT! How can she score???" Explain THAT one.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN