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Originally posted by David Emerling
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Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
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Originally posted by David Emerling
Scenario: Runner trapped in a rundown between 3rd and home. The runner is obstructed.
In ASA, unlike other sets of rules, all forms of obstruction result in a delayed deadball. The signal is for the umpire to extend a clenched fist parallel to the ground.
In my opinion, this is an umpire signal. I don't think players, coaches, or fans would recognize or notice that signal.
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You don't give them enough credit. In my experience, from local rec ball to international play, those folks are very aware of this signal.
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So, in all likelihood, the rundown would continue even though there is no possibility that this runner can ever be put out while trapped between these two bases. Kind of silly, really, if you think about it. (That's just a bit of editorializing that is not relevant to the question I'm about to ask.)
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It's only silly if you don't understand the rule. Obstruction is a rule meant to protect runners when their progress is impeded, most often unintentionally, by a defender. It is a matter of protection, not penalty.
Obstruction only protects that one runner. That doesn't mean that the defense loses the opportunity to make an out on another, unobstructed runner. If you kill the ball, you are denying the offense of advancing and possibly scoring.
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To which base is this runner awarded? How is that determined?
Let's say the runner was scampering back toward third when obstructed. The rundown continues and the runner is ultimately tagged out at the plate. What is the award?
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
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The award is applied after the obstructed runner is put out or all play is obviously complete. The obstructed runner, and any other runner the umpire judges to have been affected by the obstruction, is awarded the base to which the umpire believes they would have attained had the obstruction not occurred.
In your scenario, it seems to be 3B, but under your belief that ASA rules are often wrong because they do not get situation-specific enough as that fustercluck of a rulebook, OBR does, you would have the play ruled dead and that runner loses the chance to score which isn't as impossible as many believe.
BTW, I believe we have had this discussion a couple of times, either here or over in McGriffs the last couple of years. I think the answer has always been the same.
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My question was mostly to clarify which base an obstructed runner was awarded during a rundown. True, I never fail to take a shot at any system of rules that allows play to be continued on a player that can't be put out.
There are some systems of baseball rules that maintain a live ball on obstruction (NFHS) but, at a minimum, the runner is awarded the NEXT base.
There are some systems of softball rules that kill the play whenever there is an immediate play on an obstructed runner. (I believe NSA may be an example of that)
I think ASA is unique in that it may actually award the runner the LAST base occupied when they are obstructed during a rundown. You could almost use the rule to your advantage by giving her a big bear hug while she's being chased back toward 3rd. Tag her out. The umpire will kill the play and put her BACK at 3rd.
But, of course, this is the same system of rules that would call out the improper batter, another runner, and the proper batter all on one play in a batting-out-of-order situation. Now that's what I call a penalty! [g]
Believe me, I understand what obstruction is. It's like pornography ... I know it when I see it. Here, my only desire was to make it clear how it is administered under ASA as opposed to other system of rules. Sometimes I have a hard time keeping them all clear. I find ASA to one of the more convoluted.
The play continues leading to greater possible chaos. What many umpires have called "Third World Plays." Fielders are put into extremely awkward positions, like having to deal with runners that can't be put out - yet are almost compeled to continue to try to get them out. Other runners are given opportunities to advance ONLY because the defense is tied up with an immune runner.
Whose that blonde body builder with the short hair who used to say, "Stop the insanity!"?
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
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The insanity is that you keep coming back with the same questions as if the answers are going to change if you ask the question enough. What are you, a reporter on the political desk?
It is my opinion that you don't want to get it. You ask the same questions on multiple boards, argue with the answers, find a way to bring your baseball "experience" into the fray and then denounce the organizations which have rules with which you disagree, or cannot grasp.
There are hundreds of thousands of players, coaches and umpires in 165 countries that completely understand and play by these rules. They play with a variation of rule books, mostly ISF or a local similarity, which were or still are based on the ASA rule book. Even NFHS has been making some big moves to bring much of their book back in line with ASA's on major points.
This isn't baseball. ASA rules are so plain and simple at some points, it's almost ridiculous that some discussions even arise.
Just my personal opinion,
Mike