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Fri Jan 17, 2003, 10:59pm
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2 outs, batter hits ball between outfielders. Batter-runner misses 2B, pulls up at 3B when F8, known to have a gun, fires a bullet towards 3B. Ball sails way over F5's head, clears dugout, and last seen bouncing off red SUV 6 rows into parking lot.
"Dead Ball" says Blue. "Appeal at 2B" screams defensive coach, "she missed the base." First base coach is telling his runner to go back to 2B, says to BU "she gets to complete her running during dead ball before you award her bases, right blue!" 2nd Defensive coach is screaming "NO way! She has to stay at 3B." 3B coach wants her to go home, knowing she gets that base award. 1. Do you allow her to return to second, deny the appeal, and award her home. Run scores, still two outs. 2. Not allow her to return to 2B, grant the appeal. No runs, end of inning. 3. Not allow her to return, award her home, grant appeal. Timing play, run scores, end of inning. 4. If you said no to #1, is there anyway you could say yes? WMB 
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Fri Jan 17, 2003, 11:48pm
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Speaking ASA SP.....
Not a definitive answer, but I remember bringing this up in rules discussions because ASA changed the rules about this before last (2002) season. Fortunately I haven't faced the situation yet because I think blues have been given a clunky way to handle this. (Hope I'm wrong and someone like Mike has a more elegant answer.)
The way I read all the written change advisories I've seen is: Yes to option #1, Blue is supposed to KIND OF award the runner the bases she would get on the overthrow...BUT if she doesn't then return, on her own (against the umpire's seeming "order"), to tag the missed base, and she's then appealed at second, you then must overrule yourself and call her out. (This wouldn't arise in your scenario because the offensive coach is on his/her toes and is ordering the runner back.) You don't allow the attempted appeal at 2nd because though the ball is dead the play in this case hasn't completed yet, the appeal has come too soon. And I know there's some rules situation (which may not apply here) saying that runners can't return on a dead ball thrown out of play unless it is clear that the throw out of play was to keep the runner from retreating; I don't know what relationship that has to this situation. (Okay, Mike, don't have a cow that I can't cite section numbers, it's late and my book is downstairs in a junky basement I just can't face on a five-degree night.) But if the above is correct, I'm still not sure what language I would use to make it clear that home is a CONDITIONAL award that can be safely cashed only if she follows the re-tag procedure (and somehow not telling her what that procedure would be). I can just imagine the hell that would erupt in my games if I awarded a runner home and then called her out at 2B. If I were the manager I'd tell the blue "You told her she had home." And I think the manager would have some justification for feeling double-dealt. It IS craziness, you got that right. Then again, the guys and gals I call for ain't the sharpest crayons in the plastic bag anyway. In one co-ed game I said "take second" to the male batter after ball four so he'd know he was entitled (it was early in the season and most players weren't yet tight with the surpassingly weird co-ed walk rules). Doofus immediately set out toward second ... STRAIGHT toward second ... right across the mound. Wasn't he surprised to be the victim of a leisurely appeal out. "Duh, hey, Blue, you tol' me ah could take second!" Yes, dolt, but most runners who get to second arrive by way of touching first. Still, in tribute to this enduring stupidity, I changed my practice and quit telling walking co-ed male batters to "take second" ... now if I tell them anything at all, it includes "touch first" as a necessary first step. Maybe I should add, "and don't forget to lay down the bat." -- KENTUCKY "Help, My ASA City Officiating Corps Has Been Hijacked To NSA Effective in Three Months, Where's The Catalog, I Need All New Stuff" BLUE
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Sat Jan 18, 2003, 12:10am
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Loose end
....oh, and also on the play I award F8 a body-shop invoice for his wild throw bashing in my nice new red SUV.
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Sat Jan 18, 2003, 01:25am
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Forgot to say . . . . .
FP - FED rules (or probably most other Girls FP)
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Sat Jan 18, 2003, 08:07am
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Speaking FED:
See 8-4-g(2) "When the ball becomes dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or a base left too soon if she has advanced, touched and remains a base beyond the missed base or the base left too soon. A runner shall not be declared out if a fielder deliberately carries or throws the ball into dead-ball territory to prevent that runner from returning to a missed base or a base left too soon. " In your sitch the BR is awarded home. If she has reached 3rd when the ball goes dead, she may not return and touch second. If the defense appeals she is then called out. She is out even if she has returned to, and touched second, because the above rule prevented that return from being recognized. You are nor "overruling yourself", you are mearly administring the rules. The mechanic I would use is to declare the ball dead, point the BR to home, and then as soon as she completed her baserunning responsibity, recognize the appeal and declare her out. Roger Greene
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Sat Jan 18, 2003, 09:56am
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Bingo!
See 8-4-g(2) "When the ball becomes dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or a base left too soon if she has advanced, touched and remains a base beyond the missed base or the base left too soon. A runner shall not be declared out if a fielder deliberately carries or throws the ball into dead-ball territory to prevent that runner from returning to a missed base or a base left too soon. "
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Right rule for this situation; runner can not return so eventually she is going to be called out (on appeal). I was not sure of the sequence of calls, but you made that clear. (1) Finish running (but in this case she can not go back), (2) make awards (send runner home), (3) process appeal (call runner out), (4) determine runs scored (no score). The sequence is important. In a different scenario you could have other runners scoring, either during live ball or on awards during dead ball. If the appeal is processed last, and the third out is a timing play, then the runs scored ahead of the runner called out will count. Interestingly, sequence doesn't matter if the third out on appeal is a force out. i.e., bases loaded, R1 on 1B misses 2B on way to 3B; can not return during dead ball. Then the third out on appeal at 2B is a force out and no runners will score. BTW, in my question #4 above I was wondering is you could imagine that F8 - with a gun for an arm, has previously been very accurate, is an all-star player - - - might you suspect that she deliberately hit Kentucky's red SUV? In which case you would not allow the appeal per 8-4-g(2). Now imagine the hell generated from that call; I think that would be a hard sell to the offensive coach! WMB
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Sat Jan 18, 2003, 10:58am
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Re: Forgot to say . . . . .
Quote:
The time permitted is purely umpire's judgment, but, like a "missed tag, missed plate" play, I'm going to hesitate prior to making a ruling. In the given scenario, it seems that the defense jumped right on the appeal, not giving the umpire or offense any time to respond. Thus, the runner would be permitted to return an touch 2B and then would be awarded home which means the runner would then need to retouch 3B as she advanced to home on the award. BTW, an umpire who rules in this manner is not overturning, reversing, contradicting or doing anything remotely of the kind. That is a misconception often held by those fellas who work with the boys and that little hard ball. The umpire is merely making independent ruling(s) on totally independent plays.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Sat Jan 18, 2003, 01:46pm
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ASA: Just as we don't let defenses go fishing for outs "I'd like to appeal the runner on 1st then 2nd then 3rd that they left early then missed a base,etc..." I don't believe that we should allow the baserunners to go "fishing" either. On the above play we have a runner that has run 60' past a missed bag without showing signs of retreating and I don't believe that the dead ball should let her off the hook. I would need an indication that she had intent of retouching before I'd let her go back. Let's say BR missed 1st and went all the way to 3rd, F1 yells for the throw to go to 1st and the runner starts her retreat and then the ball goes Out Of Play. In this case I would allow the runner to return to retag 1st on her way to home. I kind of miss the idea of 1 plus 1 since in these cases that would be more fair to both teams. You'd tell the runner you were here at the time of the throw you get the base you were going to plus one. When they stop running you allow appeals, but that's not the rule now only wishful thinking. Jim
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Sat Jan 18, 2003, 02:31pm
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Quote:
 It's the defense who let the offense off the hook, not the umpire. When it comes down to it, ASA's rule is plain and simple. The umpire cannot honor an appeal or award bases during a dead ball until all running assignments are complete. BTW, the 1 and 1 was far to confusing for the players and coaches. Hell, many of them can't figure out something as simple as "two from the time of the throw" and then you expect them to be able to add?
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Sat Jan 18, 2003, 02:54pm
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Mike, I suppose you're right it's just that I see the day comming that I have a coach burned once who from then on tells all his runners to go back and touch all bases on all throws out of play and there needs to be a line drawn somewhere to prevent that. Imagine that you have bases loaded, clean triple, and the ball goes OOP. Coach tells all 4 runners to go back and touch all the bases to prevent any possible appeal. This is where judgement comes into play. In the original post the defense should have kept it's mouth shut and then judgement is taken out of the play. It's kinda like my pre-game with coaches about collisions, if you get down or go around then I don't have to make a judgement call and we all know how you feel about my judgement. Jim
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Sun Jan 19, 2003, 11:49am
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Quote:
Besides, once a following runner scores, the runner is not allowed to return.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 12:52pm
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ASA Rule Change 2003
Rule 8, Sec. 5-G EFFECT: Add to effect following sub-section G to read: G. When the ball is in play and is overthrown (beyond the boundary lines) or is blocked. EFFECT:All runners will be awarded two bases, and the award will be governed by the position of the runners when the ball left the fielders hand. Runners may return to touch a missed base or base left too soon. If two runners are between the same bases, the award is based on the position of the lead runner. Once a base runner advances to and passes the next awarded base, the runner may no longer return to touch any missed base or any base left too soon. COMMENTS:A dead ball should be called and allow runners the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities. Returning to touch a missed base or one left too soon must occur prior to an award. Once the umpire awards base(s), and if a runner reaches the first base of the award, and then for any reason, retreats to a previous base missed or left too soon, this would be an illegal act, and the defense could appeal. The umpire would rule the runner out. With the rule change there appears to be little or no difference to the Fed rule (don't have a fed book). As I see it when the ball goes out of play the umpire calls "dead ball" and gives the runner the opportunity to retag bases, if the runner does not make any running attempt or asks for the award then the umpire awards bases. Now that bases have been awarded if the runner is at or past the 1st awarded base or goes to an awarded base and then attempts to retouch a previous (awarded or not)base then it would be an appeal play and the umpire would rule the runner out. So in the original post the defense jumped the gun and is SOL. If, however, the coach keeps it's mouth shut and runner starts for home or asks what does she get the plate ump awards her home. If she then retreats towards 2nd the defense can appeal and the runner is out, or if she goes directly to home then the defense appeals 2nd, out. Jim
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 01:42pm
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Well, I'm speaking Fed rules from southern country in Shreveport, Louisiana and I agree with Roger on this one, hook, line & sinker. The runner cannot return once the ball is dead, I would award her the appropriate base, and then rule on the appeal. In this case, an out.........
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 04:39pm
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't mean to sound like a rookie, but I'm pretty much ASA only, so I don't know the FED rules very well to compare. The ASA rule change seems to be implying some kind of positive action by the runner to proceed to an awarded base after the award is announced by using the word "next", but then talks further about reaching the "first" awarded base. Situation: she missed 2nd, throw made while she is between 2nd and 3rd & ball is thrown out of play. Runner comes to a stop on 3rd; umpire calls "dead ball." Now, is this runner not allowed to return to touch 2nd once I announce the award, since 3rd is the "first" awarded base? Or, since the "next" base in the award would be home, is she allowed to return even after I announce, so long as that is her first move - back toward 2nd? Am I parsing this too close? I think I know the intent of the rule, but it sounds like I can strand a runner by announcing the award too soon. Or, maybe not... If this is the existing FED rule, how long do you guys wait after the dead ball call to see if the runner has any intention of trying to return? Does it matter if a coach is yelling at her to return but she's not reacting yet?
__________________
Tom
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 05:03pm
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Again speaking FED and in response to Tom's inquiry, there would be no waiting to see if an attempt is made to return. By rule (FED), the runner cannot return once the ball is ruled dead and she has advanced, touched or remains beyond the base that was originally missed. The dead ball award can be made, however after the proper appeal, she would be called out. The runner could actually be put out in a live ball appeal before the ball was thrown out of play at 3rd or as described in this situation, on a dead ball appeal. Either way, the runner is out.
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