Potential for a big mess....

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You don't have to be SURE that it was a swing... you have to be SURE that you didn't see a swing. If you saw one, it's a strike. If you are not positive you saw a swing, then you are SURE that you didn't see a swing, and rule no swing.

Those semantic gymnastics just don't work. You could say, I'm sure that I'm not sure I saw a swing. But you certainly can't say from that, that I'm sure I didn't see a swing.
But I don't disagree with what I think you were trying to say. If I don't see her offer, I'm not going to call it.
And to expand that a little since maybe I still don't understand. When I say in my judgment she swung, that's not the same thing as saying there is no possible doubt in my mind that she offered at that pitch. As Steve pointed out, there's a default call for many situations. If you don't see an out, safe. But that is different from I saw an out and there's still the smallest amount of doubt in my mind.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

Situation:

HS V game - Bases loaded, 2 outs, 3-2 count on the batter. I am PU, pitch comes in just up and slightly inside, I call Ball 4, batter starts to swing, but stops. F2 asks me to go for help on the check swing, BU partner rings up the third strike for out number 3, inning over.

What got me thinking was what if this had happened with less than two out?
ie, ball 4, B/R heads to first, all other runners start advancing, then BU partner rings up the third strike....all the other runners are already off base and trotting toward the next base and would be easily picked off...do we let that play stand? I know what I would do, but would like to hear other opinions.

Back to the original post, my NCAA crew had that call this weekend.

R1 on 1st in the bottom of the 7th, 1 out, 3-1 count. I am U1 in 3 man crew. PU rules ball 4, and appeals swing to me. I have a swing (strike 2); in that space of time, R1 heads toward 2nd, believing she is forced, then half-heartedly returns, but is picked!!

Not sure of proper mechanic at this point, but I ring out the pick. Offensive Head Coach (class act, mind you) comes out, not sure what to ask, but then wants the "Did she go?" appeal to be a dead ball. I say, no, it remains live, but agree to bring the (3 umpire) crew together to "check".

In the huddle, I tell everyone what the coach asked, but I am declining, BUT add that I think we put the runner in jeopardy with the initial call and subsequent reversal. Crew agrees, I explain the revised ruling to the defensive coach (she also HAD to come out and ask, but also a class act); and we put the runner back with (now) 3-2 count, still 1 out. Miracle of miracles, everyone moved on, and the world didn't end!!

Mechanics question to others; I felt I HAD to make the initial call, then not consider "jeopardy" unless someone else challenged. What say you? Could/should I have just refused to call the (apparent) out, like an obstruction ruling?

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Back to the original post, my NCAA crew had that call this weekend.

R1 on 1st in the bottom of the 7th, 1 out, 3-1 count. I am U1 in 3 man crew. PU rules ball 4, and appeals swing to me. I have a swing (strike 2); in that space of time, R1 heads toward 2nd, believing she is forced, then half-heartedly returns, but is picked!!

Not sure of proper mechanic at this point, but I ring out the pick. Offensive Head Coach (class act, mind you) comes out, not sure what to ask, but then wants the "Did she go?" appeal to be a dead ball. I say, no, it remains live, but agree to bring the (3 umpire) crew together to "check".

In the huddle, I tell everyone what the coach asked, but I am declining, BUT add that I think we put the runner in jeopardy with the initial call and subsequent reversal. Crew agrees, I explain the revised ruling to the defensive coach (she also HAD to come out and ask, but also a class act); and we put the runner back with (now) 3-2 count, still 1 out. Miracle of miracles, everyone moved on, and the world didn't end!!

Mechanics question to others; I felt I HAD to make the initial call, then not consider "jeopardy" unless someone else challenged. What say you? Could/should I have just refused to call the (apparent) out, like an obstruction ruling?

Thank you Steve.......!!

You made the call that was correct and then fixed it!

There is no need to lie about a call to attempt to avoid a crap storm.

Joel

[tcannizzo]

Not exactly the same, but closely related, I think.

Bases loaded, 1 out. B hits low line drive to F6 making a what looked like a shoe-string, snow cone catch. I am PU and rule CATCH. F6 throws to F4 to what would then be a double play retiring R2 before she can return to 2B.

There was a question in my mind as to whether it was a catch or trap.
I asked partner if he saw the ball touch the ground, to which he said yes.

I fixed the call by awarding B 1B, and retiring R3 on the force out at 2B, awarding R2 3B, we now have 2 outs.

DC questions the mechanic saying that my call put his team at a disadvantage, but understood when I said that my call put both teams at an equal disadvantage, albeit that a run scored and only one out was registered rather than an inning-ending double play.

What say ye?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

...then not consider "jeopardy" unless someone else challenged.

I don't see why you'd wait. If bases loaded 2 out, F3 pulled her foot and the OC came out and asked you to go for help and you went for help and your partner tells you that she pulled her foot are you going to wait for him to complain before you bring the rest of his runners back out?

Perhaps a rule/mechanic change is in order here. If we killed the ball immediately if we were going to go out on a check swing appeal of ball 3 then we'd avoid a bunch of messes and only take away the dumb games around first base.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Not exactly the same, but closely related, I think.

Bases loaded, 1 out. B hits low line drive to F6 making a what looked like a shoe-string, snow cone catch. I am PU and rule CATCH. F6 throws to F4 to what would then be a double play retiring R2 before she can return to 2B.

There was a question in my mind as to whether it was a catch or trap.
I asked partner if he saw the ball touch the ground, to which he said yes.

I fixed the call by awarding B 1B, and retiring R3 on the force out at 2B, awarding R2 3B, we now have 2 outs.

DC questions the mechanic saying that my call put his team at a disadvantage, but understood when I said that my call put both teams at an equal disadvantage, albeit that a run scored and only one out was registered rather than an inning-ending double play.

What say ye?

I had almost this exact play yesterday in a HS game. Difference was the throw was back to 1B for the live ball appeal. I immediately asked my partner if he had a catch; he said no, it was a trap. Meanwhile, both runners had returned to the dugout. We ruled the BR out on the throw to 1B and place the original R1 back on 1B. Like tcannizzo, comments?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Mechanics question to others; I felt I HAD to make the initial call, then not consider "jeopardy" unless someone else challenged. What say you? Could/should I have just refused to call the (apparent) out, like an obstruction ruling?

An umpire should always make the call that is appropriate at the time of the play. Doing otherwise may deprive the defense of another possible play or the offense of having another runner advance then you have a lot more "crap" to clean up.

Even with OBS, you really only "don't" call the out when it was the OBS runner and YOU were the one who raised the arm.

Good call!