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-   -   Potential for a big mess.... (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/66046-potential-big-mess.html)

Andy Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:51am
Potential for a big mess....
 
Situation:

HS V game - Bases loaded, 2 outs, 3-2 count on the batter. I am PU, pitch comes in just up and slightly inside, I call Ball 4, batter starts to swing, but stops. F2 asks me to go for help on the check swing, BU partner rings up the third strike for out number 3, inning over.

What got me thinking was what if this had happened with less than two out?
ie, ball 4, B/R heads to first, all other runners start advancing, then BU partner rings up the third strike....all the other runners are already off base and trotting toward the next base and would be easily picked off...do we let that play stand? I know what I would do, but would like to hear other opinions.

topper Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:13am
How long of a delay before the catcher asked for you to go for help?

I think in this situation, the PU should go for help on his/her own immediately upon any check swing. Same thing as on a D3K/check swing situation.

RKBUmp Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:22am
Got to ask, right or left handed batter? Right handed, she must have gone an awfully long way around to get rung up from C position.

argodad Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy (Post 745853)
Situation:

HS V game - Bases loaded, 2 outs, 3-2 count on the batter. I am PU, pitch comes in just up and slightly inside, I call Ball 4, batter starts to swing, but stops. F2 asks me to go for help on the check swing, BU partner rings up the third strike for out number 3, inning over.

What got me thinking was what if this had happened with less than two out?
ie, ball 4, B/R heads to first, all other runners start advancing, then BU partner rings up the third strike....all the other runners are already off base and trotting toward the next base and would be easily picked off...do we let that play stand? I know what I would do, but would like to hear other opinions.
If I'm the BU in C, I'm going to answer NO and signal safe in the <2 outs situation. However, your partner didn't do that.

In the event the call resulted in an easy tag out of a runner who thought she was forced to advance as a result of the apparent walk, you could use 10.2.m to return runners to their previous bases. Your call of BALL was reversed by the BU, which put the runners in jeopardy.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy (Post 745853)
Situation:

HS V game - Bases loaded, 2 outs, 3-2 count on the batter. I am PU, pitch comes in just up and slightly inside, I call Ball 4, batter starts to swing, but stops. F2 asks me to go for help on the check swing, BU partner rings up the third strike for out number 3, inning over.

What got me thinking was what if this had happened with less than two out?
ie, ball 4, B/R heads to first, all other runners start advancing, then BU partner rings up the third strike....all the other runners are already off base and trotting toward the next base and would be easily picked off...do we let that play stand? I know what I would do, but would like to hear other opinions.
All the "what ifs" and alternate scenarios aside, if the initial or subsequent call placed either team in jeopardy of making the proper play, I'm going to correct the count and move all runners to the base they would have been, IMO, had my call not been reversed.

robbie Fri Apr 01, 2011 01:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by argodad (Post 745867)
If I'm the BU in C, I'm going to answer NO and signal safe in the <2 outs situation. However, your partner didn't do that.

In the event the call resulted in an easy tag out of a runner who thought she was forced to advance as a result of the apparent walk, you could use 10.2.m to return runners to their previous bases. Your call of BALL was reversed by the BU, which put the runners in jeopardy.
I hear that comment a lot. But why would one make such a blanket situation? What if she swung?

I understand the burdon of proof may be very high to make that call from C, but to say one would never call a strike from C is, in my opinion, irresponsible.

argodad Fri Apr 01, 2011 02:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie (Post 745910)
I hear that comment a lot. But why would one make such a blanket situation? What if she swung?

I understand the burdon of proof may be very high to make that call from C, but to say one would never call a strike from C is, in my opinion, irresponsible.
Robbie, I agree with you. But in the case of a delayed request with runners moving (or in the case in which it would become a dropped 3K) I'm going to lean strongly to a "no swing" call, especially from the C slot.

As an aside, I was watching a 2-ump NCAA game a couple of years ago when BU ruled a swing from C. The offensive coach questioned him, and he responded, "Coach, if she'd have made contact she would have hit it out of the park!"

youngump Fri Apr 01, 2011 04:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy (Post 745853)
Situation:

HS V game - Bases loaded, 2 outs, 3-2 count on the batter. I am PU, pitch comes in just up and slightly inside, I call Ball 4, batter starts to swing, but stops. F2 asks me to go for help on the check swing, BU partner rings up the third strike for out number 3, inning over.

What got me thinking was what if this had happened with less than two out?
ie, ball 4, B/R heads to first, all other runners start advancing, then BU partner rings up the third strike....all the other runners are already off base and trotting toward the next base and would be easily picked off...do we let that play stand? I know what I would do, but would like to hear other opinions.
Wading in to treacherous waters, in baseball, they have a rule noting that players maintain liability to be put out in this kind of situation. I prefer the fix it approach though.

topper Fri Apr 01, 2011 04:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 745881)
All the "what ifs" and alternate scenarios aside, if the initial or subsequent call placed either team in jeopardy of making the proper play, I'm going to correct the count and move all runners to the base they would have been, IMO, had my call not been reversed.
So you're scoring a run and advancing the other runners?

HugoTafurst Fri Apr 01, 2011 04:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 745862)
Got to ask, right or left handed batter? Right handed, she must have gone an awfully long way around to get rung up from C position.

GOT to ask???:rolleyes:
Why do you have to ask?????:rolleyes:

HugoTafurst Fri Apr 01, 2011 04:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by argodad (Post 745867)
In the event the call resulted in an easy tag out of a runner who thought she was forced to advance as a result of the apparent walk, you could use 10.2.m to return runners to their previous bases. Your call of BALL was reversed by the BU, which put the runners in jeopardy.

Exactly

HugoTafurst Fri Apr 01, 2011 05:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by topper (Post 745965)
So you're scoring a run and advancing the other runners?
??
I'm putting the runners back.
Unless something unusaul happened would they otherwise have advanced?
And the way I read Irish's response, he would do the same.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Apr 01, 2011 05:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by topper (Post 745965)
So you're scoring a run and advancing the other runners?
I have no idea where you came up with that as I certainly didn't say that.

Of course, that would have been the reaction if the BU said "NO".

KJUmp Fri Apr 01, 2011 05:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie (Post 745910)
I hear that comment a lot. But why would one make such a blanket situation? What if she swung?

I understand the burdon of proof may be very high to make that call from C, but to say one would never call a strike from C is, in my opinion, irresponsible.
Totally agree.

Gulf Coast Blue Fri Apr 01, 2011 06:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by argodad (Post 745867)
If I'm the BU in C, I'm going to answer NO and signal safe in the <2 outs situation. However, your partner didn't do that.

In the event the call resulted in an easy tag out of a runner who thought she was forced to advance as a result of the apparent walk, you could use 10.2.m to return runners to their previous bases. Your call of BALL was reversed by the BU, which put the runners in jeopardy.
Bullcrap......you call what you see.

Joel


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