Potential for a big mess....

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

As there shouldn't be if you make the call from A or B. right?

Correct.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

But there better not be one doubt in your mind. You have a worse angle than the plate umpire.

I've made that call twice in 24 from the C with a right handed batter. Both times the situation was the same: high pitch, catcher stood up and blocked the PU's view, and I was looking directly at the end of the bat's barrel.

I am saying to call what you have......not to base your call on where you are on the field. Did the batter check thier swing.......Yes.......you give a safe sign.

No......ring up a strike.

I am not in the habit of making calls I am not sure of.

Joel

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Gulf Coast Blue

I am saying to call what you have......not to base your call on where you are on the field. Did the batter check thier swing.......Yes.......you give a safe sign.

No......ring up a strike.

I am not in the habit of making calls I am not sure of.

Joel

Really? And what if you're not sure? I doubt you'd really just refuse to make a call on a checked swing. In my mind some calls are best guess if you're not sure, blocked out on a pitch perhaps. And others where you need to be sure, illegal pitch. The key difference usually being that in many cases you have to make some call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

Situation:

HS V game - Bases loaded, 2 outs, 3-2 count on the batter. I am PU, pitch comes in just up and slightly inside, I call Ball 4, batter starts to swing, but stops. F2 asks me to go for help on the check swing, BU partner rings up the third strike for out number 3, inning over.

What got me thinking was what if this had happened with less than two out?
ie, ball 4, B/R heads to first, all other runners start advancing, then BU partner rings up the third strike....all the other runners are already off base and trotting toward the next base and would be easily picked off...do we let that play stand? I know what I would do, but would like to hear other opinions.

All the "what ifs" and alternate scenarios aside, if the initial or subsequent call placed either team in jeopardy of making the proper play, I'm going to correct the count and move all runners to the base they would have been, IMO, had my call not been reversed.

[topper]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

All the "what ifs" and alternate scenarios aside, if the initial or subsequent call placed either team in jeopardy of making the proper play, I'm going to correct the count and move all runners to the base they would have been, IMO, had my call not been reversed.

So you're scoring a run and advancing the other runners?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by topper

So you're scoring a run and advancing the other runners?

??
I'm putting the runners back.
Unless something unusaul happened would they otherwise have advanced?
And the way I read Irish's response, he would do the same.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by topper

So you're scoring a run and advancing the other runners?

I have no idea where you came up with that as I certainly didn't say that.

Of course, that would have been the reaction if the BU said "NO".

[topper]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I have no idea where you came up with that as I certainly didn't say that.

Of course, that would have been the reaction if the BU said "NO".

I'm going to correct the count and move all runners to the base they would have been, IMO, had my call not been reversed.

__________________

So what did you mean?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by topper

__________________

So what did you mean?

To begin, my comment was generic. A simple statement that I would correct the situation as to off-set any negative affect the change of the call would have on either team.

If IMO runners are advancing based upon my "ball" call, they will be sent back to the base they occupied at the time of the pitch.

BTW, if the DC wants to argue the point, cite 5.2.1.f as the ball being dead (the moment I stepped from behind the plate to perform part of my duties as an umpire which drew my attention away from possible play) so runners cannot advance, nor be put out. (5.2.2.a-b)

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Andy

Situation:

HS V game - Bases loaded, 2 outs, 3-2 count on the batter. I am PU, pitch comes in just up and slightly inside, I call Ball 4, batter starts to swing, but stops. F2 asks me to go for help on the check swing, BU partner rings up the third strike for out number 3, inning over.

What got me thinking was what if this had happened with less than two out?
ie, ball 4, B/R heads to first, all other runners start advancing, then BU partner rings up the third strike....all the other runners are already off base and trotting toward the next base and would be easily picked off...do we let that play stand? I know what I would do, but would like to hear other opinions.

Wading in to treacherous waters, in baseball, they have a rule noting that players maintain liability to be put out in this kind of situation. I prefer the fix it approach though.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

Situation:

HS V game - Bases loaded, 2 outs, 3-2 count on the batter. I am PU, pitch comes in just up and slightly inside, I call Ball 4, batter starts to swing, but stops. F2 asks me to go for help on the check swing, BU partner rings up the third strike for out number 3, inning over.

What got me thinking was what if this had happened with less than two out?
ie, ball 4, B/R heads to first, all other runners start advancing, then BU partner rings up the third strike....all the other runners are already off base and trotting toward the next base and would be easily picked off...do we let that play stand? I know what I would do, but would like to hear other opinions.

Back to the original post, my NCAA crew had that call this weekend.

R1 on 1st in the bottom of the 7th, 1 out, 3-1 count. I am U1 in 3 man crew. PU rules ball 4, and appeals swing to me. I have a swing (strike 2); in that space of time, R1 heads toward 2nd, believing she is forced, then half-heartedly returns, but is picked!!

Not sure of proper mechanic at this point, but I ring out the pick. Offensive Head Coach (class act, mind you) comes out, not sure what to ask, but then wants the "Did she go?" appeal to be a dead ball. I say, no, it remains live, but agree to bring the (3 umpire) crew together to "check".

In the huddle, I tell everyone what the coach asked, but I am declining, BUT add that I think we put the runner in jeopardy with the initial call and subsequent reversal. Crew agrees, I explain the revised ruling to the defensive coach (she also HAD to come out and ask, but also a class act); and we put the runner back with (now) 3-2 count, still 1 out. Miracle of miracles, everyone moved on, and the world didn't end!!

Mechanics question to others; I felt I HAD to make the initial call, then not consider "jeopardy" unless someone else challenged. What say you? Could/should I have just refused to call the (apparent) out, like an obstruction ruling?

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Back to the original post, my NCAA crew had that call this weekend.

R1 on 1st in the bottom of the 7th, 1 out, 3-1 count. I am U1 in 3 man crew. PU rules ball 4, and appeals swing to me. I have a swing (strike 2); in that space of time, R1 heads toward 2nd, believing she is forced, then half-heartedly returns, but is picked!!

Not sure of proper mechanic at this point, but I ring out the pick. Offensive Head Coach (class act, mind you) comes out, not sure what to ask, but then wants the "Did she go?" appeal to be a dead ball. I say, no, it remains live, but agree to bring the (3 umpire) crew together to "check".

In the huddle, I tell everyone what the coach asked, but I am declining, BUT add that I think we put the runner in jeopardy with the initial call and subsequent reversal. Crew agrees, I explain the revised ruling to the defensive coach (she also HAD to come out and ask, but also a class act); and we put the runner back with (now) 3-2 count, still 1 out. Miracle of miracles, everyone moved on, and the world didn't end!!

Mechanics question to others; I felt I HAD to make the initial call, then not consider "jeopardy" unless someone else challenged. What say you? Could/should I have just refused to call the (apparent) out, like an obstruction ruling?

Thank you Steve.......!!

You made the call that was correct and then fixed it!

There is no need to lie about a call to attempt to avoid a crap storm.

Joel

[tcannizzo]

Not exactly the same, but closely related, I think.

Bases loaded, 1 out. B hits low line drive to F6 making a what looked like a shoe-string, snow cone catch. I am PU and rule CATCH. F6 throws to F4 to what would then be a double play retiring R2 before she can return to 2B.

There was a question in my mind as to whether it was a catch or trap.
I asked partner if he saw the ball touch the ground, to which he said yes.

I fixed the call by awarding B 1B, and retiring R3 on the force out at 2B, awarding R2 3B, we now have 2 outs.

DC questions the mechanic saying that my call put his team at a disadvantage, but understood when I said that my call put both teams at an equal disadvantage, albeit that a run scored and only one out was registered rather than an inning-ending double play.

What say ye?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Not exactly the same, but closely related, I think.

Bases loaded, 1 out. B hits low line drive to F6 making a what looked like a shoe-string, snow cone catch. I am PU and rule CATCH. F6 throws to F4 to what would then be a double play retiring R2 before she can return to 2B.

There was a question in my mind as to whether it was a catch or trap.
I asked partner if he saw the ball touch the ground, to which he said yes.

I fixed the call by awarding B 1B, and retiring R3 on the force out at 2B, awarding R2 3B, we now have 2 outs.

DC questions the mechanic saying that my call put his team at a disadvantage, but understood when I said that my call put both teams at an equal disadvantage, albeit that a run scored and only one out was registered rather than an inning-ending double play.

What say ye?

I had almost this exact play yesterday in a HS game. Difference was the throw was back to 1B for the live ball appeal. I immediately asked my partner if he had a catch; he said no, it was a trap. Meanwhile, both runners had returned to the dugout. We ruled the BR out on the throw to 1B and place the original R1 back on 1B. Like tcannizzo, comments?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

...then not consider "jeopardy" unless someone else challenged.

I don't see why you'd wait. If bases loaded 2 out, F3 pulled her foot and the OC came out and asked you to go for help and you went for help and your partner tells you that she pulled her foot are you going to wait for him to complain before you bring the rest of his runners back out?

Perhaps a rule/mechanic change is in order here. If we killed the ball immediately if we were going to go out on a check swing appeal of ball 3 then we'd avoid a bunch of messes and only take away the dumb games around first base.