Federation play

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Ruling 2 does not require the BR to enter DBT. All it says if the is taking TOO long to advance (until "the time of the next pitch"), she can be declared out for failure to advance. How much time do you suggest she be given?

I agree the rule itself says "fails to advance to first base and enters the team area", but the case play says if she just plain never advances, she is out. She does not need to start to advance to become a BR. She is a BR by virtue of the D3K. She just does not advance.

The phrase "The batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area" applies to everything that follows. The case play does not say if she doesn't advance she is out. She did advance but after a delay. The case play is giving us a time frame for which she can advance. If she is still walking to the dugout when the first pitch is thrown to the next batter then you call her out. She can't advance at that time. If the infielders have left the field of play before she advances, it is too late as well. In this situation she obviously thinks her at bat isn't over. She hasn't entered the team area. The next batter hasn't stepped into the batter's box, so there is no next pitch to consider. The infielders haven't left the field yet. At least the OP didn't mention that they did. So, the case play is not on point.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by rwest

The phrase "The batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area" applies to everything that follows. The case play does not say if she doesn't advance she is out. She did advance but after a delay. The case play is giving us a time frame for which she can advance. If she is still walking to the dugout when the first pitch is thrown to the next batter then you call her out. She can't advance at that time. If the infielders have left the field of play before she advances, it is too late as well. In this situation she obviously thinks her at bat isn't over. She hasn't entered the team area. The next batter hasn't stepped into the batter's box, so there is no next pitch to consider. The infielders haven't left the field yet. At least the OP didn't mention that they did. So, the case play is not on point.

I'm just taking the case play at face value. Did she or did she not reach the base before the time of the next pitch? She did not.

Whether or not she is aware she is a BR is not the issue. She has coaches right? What were they doing during the play at home? Everyone was apparently clueless, including (unfortunately) the umpire (since he called TIME). The case play gives a ruling here, and rather than continue the comedy, I say take it. BR out, no run scores.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Probably nothing until one team or the other reacts (except shoot myself for calling time).
However, I agree with Tom on the case play item #2 meaning until it is time for the next pitch, even if another batter has not appeared.

In the OP, it seems the batter thought it was a steal of HP and did not register that it was strike 3, DMB.

First of all the batter has 10 seconds to get into the batters box. So, that time will expire before the time the pitcher has to pitch will. The on deck batter may not know she is due up anyway since the BR is clueless. So who are you going to put in the batter's box? The BR or the on deck batter? You just called strike three on the BR. It was a dropped third strike but she didn't run. You can't get her out on rule 8-2 because none of the scenarios apply yet. You can't get to the next pitch until you have a batter in the box. So, again which batter are you going to call up to bat? If you put the BR in the box and then tell the pitcher to pitch, you can then call her out. But then explain to the coach why you let a batter who already had three strikes on her in the box. You can't call the On deck batter up to bat unless you do something with the BR. You can't call her out because she has not been put out.

I still say put the ball in play, hold up the pitcher, and tell everyone that I have a dropped third strike and watch what happens.

Is there any rule that specifically says that a runner who fails to advance to a base is out? I don't have my rule book handy. I don't mean a rule that we interpret that way. But a clear rule that says failure to advance is an out.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I'm just taking the case play at face value. Did she or did she not reach the base before the time of the next pitch? She did not.

Whether or not she is aware she is a BR is not the issue. She has coaches right? What were they doing during the play at home? Everyone was apparently clueless, including (unfortunately) the umpire (since he called TIME). The case play gives a ruling here, and rather than continue the comedy, I say take it. BR out, no run scores.

The case play doesn't say there was a next pitch. It just gives us the time frame in which the BR can advance to first base. In the OP none of this applies. There was no next pitch. The BR did not enter the team area. The infielders did not leave the field of play. How are you going to get the next pitch in the OP?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by rwest

The case play doesn't say there was a next pitch. It just gives us the time frame in which the BR can advance to first base. In the OP none of this applies. There was no next pitch. The BR did not enter the team area. The infielders did not leave the field of play. How are you going to get the next pitch in the OP?

It's what was said by MGKBLUE. F1 has the ball in the circle. Signal the ball live. BR does not advance. Rule BR out. If you want to wait a few to see what the BR does, fine. But I wouldn't wait too long. As I said, both teams have coaches.

In ASA, there is no support for doing much of anything except signaling the ball live, and waiting it out.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

It's what was said by MGKBLUE. F1 has the ball in the circle. Signal the ball live. BR does not advance. Rule BR out. If you want to wait a few to see what the BR does, fine. But I wouldn't wait too long. As I said, both teams have coaches.

In ASA, there is no support for doing much of anything except signaling the ball live, and waiting it out.

What ASA rule reference do you have to support that statment? Not saying I disagree or that your are wrong. I'd just like to read them myself. As far as NFHS, I'm still having a problem with your interpretation. You can't get to the next pitch until you have a batter in the box. So who are you going to put in the batters box?

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by ronald

Federation rules

One of our umpires had a play in a scrimmage yesterday. Our commissioner is the interpreter for Maryland and gave us the ruling and stated it came from the National Office. I am going to call him back and make sure of what he said before I give you his/their answer. In the meantime, you can give your thoughts.


Bases loaded, 1 ball, 2 strikes. 2 outs. Next pitch is a strike that the catcher misses. The batter backs away from home plate, the runner from 3rd runs home and is safe on play at the plate. Pitcher covered. Umpire lets the dust settle, calls time, cleans the plate, looks up and sees the batter back to the side and rear of home plate.

What are you going to do?

We had strike 3 and BR chose not to advance. I can't make the ball live until I've got a batter ready and the pitcher & catcher ready. So, when I can make the ball live, if this BR is not on 1B, she's out and the run is removed. If this BR is on 1B when I can make the ball live, all previous stuff stands.

[Dakota]

I can find no ASA rule to anything EXCEPT declare the ball live and wait. It is a lack of a rule that lead to this. There is no reversed call, so ASA 10-3-C can't be used. The D3K is covered by the rules, so the "god" rule (10-1) is not applicable. The umpire just screwed up by calling TIME. So, uncall TIME and wait. I guess.

As to Fed, the case play seems to provide a workable ruling for this situation.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Steve M

We had strike 3 and BR chose not to advance. I can't make the ball live until I've got a batter ready and the pitcher & catcher ready. So, when I can make the ball live, if this BR is not on 1B, she's out and the run is removed. If this BR is on 1B when I can make the ball live, all previous stuff stands.

Based on what rule and what rule set? In Fed you can't get an out unless she fails to advance before a) the next pitch, b) she has left the field of play or C) the infielders have left the diamond. None of these have occurred in the OP.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I can find no ASA rule to anything EXCEPT declare the ball live and wait. It is a lack of a rule that lead to this. There is no reversed call, so ASA 10-3-C can't be used. The D3K is covered by the rules, so the "god" rule (10-1) is not applicable. The umpire just screwed up by calling TIME. So, uncall TIME and wait. I guess.

As to Fed, the case play seems to provide a workable ruling for this situation.

I don't believe the case play is on point. Nothing in the case play has happened in the OP. It doesn't provide us with any solution to this problem. She hasn't left the field of play, the defense hasn't left the diamond and there has not been another pitch. So 8-2 doesn't apply. This has been a good debate. I've enjoyed it, but I can't agree with your ruling.

Edited to Add: I must amend my previous solution. I can't make the ball live until I have a batter in the box. I guess I'd call the BR back into the box, announce I have 1 ball and 3 strikes and hope someone notice the count and does something. If not then I tell the pitcher to pitch. Then if she pitches, declare the batter out and nullify the run, then explain it to the coach and possibly have to send him home early.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by rwest

...In Fed you can't get an out unless she fails to advance before a) the next pitch,...

The technicality I'm hanging my hat on, from the case play:

she did not reach the base before the time of the next pitch

Doesn't exactly say there has to BE a next pitch. Only that is it time for it.

[CajunNewBlue]

Ok, after reading all of the above... IMHO, if you actually screw up like the OP umpire did. You turn, tell the batter to go sit down as she is OUT. and wait for your well deserved @ss chewing and you never ever ever do that again.

Calling time killed the opportunity for the BR to advance to 1st and the 3rd strike was valid... So she is out and the sides change. and do not score the run.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I don't have a rule reference here, so I'm going to rule as if I was making up the rule.

As stated in the OP, the batter is still hovering around HP, not knowing that she just took a 3rd strike. After all the dust has settled, and unfortunately because time was called, and everyone is back in position, if that batter is still at HP, she will be called out for failing to advance to 1B before the time of the next pitch. There doesn't have to be a next pitch, only that everyone is sorta ready for a next pitch.

Some thoughts:

1. Although time had been called, if the defense is alert enough, or someone wakes them up [coach, parent, fan], I think they could still make a dead ball appeal at 1B where the runner never advanced. Appeal upheald, BR out, no run scores.
2. Although time had been called, if someone finally managed to whisper into the BR's earhole and she snuck on down to 1B and was standing on the base, now I'm stuck. I don't think anyone can advance during a dead ball [unless a base award]. So if the next batter comes to bat, and the struck-out batter managed to obtain 1B during a dead ball, do I call her out? Does the defense have to appeal? What do they appeal?

Ted

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ronald

Bases loaded, 1 ball, 2 strikes. 2 outs. Next pitch is a strike that the catcher misses. The batter backs away from home plate, the runner from 3rd runs home and is safe on play at the plate. Pitcher covered. Umpire lets the dust settle, calls time, cleans the plate, looks up and sees the batter back to the side and rear of home plate.

What are you going to do?

Say, "Oh ****" to myself. Point to the ODB and say, "next batter" and hope the girl at the plate just walks into the dugout

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Say, "Oh ****" to myself. Point to the ODB and say, "next batter" and hope the girl at the plate just walks into the dugout

in the OP there are two outs already.