Federation play

[AtlUmpSteve]

Here's my opinion; probably no better than anyone else's.

I don't believe any brand would want, desire, or allow the farce of making the ball live again, without a batter, to complete a play that was incomplete. The PU erred by calling time; now rule on the result of the play that was negated.

I am willing to bet the official NFHS ruling is to simply declare the out. That is consistent with the case play ruling that during live play, if two runners are standing on the same base, and the defense refuses to make a play, that you simply declare an out. There is no exact rules basis for that, either (since the remedy in the rules is that the defense must tag the trail runner); but, it is, at least in my mind consistent. It would appear that the NFHS remedy for the offense failing to advance or return when necessary to continue play is to simply declare the out.

ASA is a bit more complicated; in the live play situation, as an umpire you must simply wait and force the defense to make a play, because 1) the ball is live, 2) you cannot have a next pitch with two runners on a base, 3) the runners cannot legally leave the base without violating the lookback rule, ergo, 4) the defense must go get the out.

And, if our PU had his head in the game, that is what would happen here; time never granted, so make someone do something. No abandonment in live ball territory, but we cannot have a next pitch (or the time of a next pitch). However, the ASA 10.3-c grants an added authority, to rectify any situation where a delay in making a call puts a team in jeopardy.

In my judgment, once the PU called time, and the BR did not complete running responsibilities, the team placed in the greater jeopardy by not ruling on the live play still unresolved is the defense. It is apparent to me, at least, that once the count is announced, repeated, whatever needed to wake them up, that the defense had a greater opportunity to get the out to retire the BR than the offense had to safely advance; and it could be argued that the offense failed to advance, and that calling time is what cost the defense the opportunity to make the out.

So, in ASA, absent a specific ruling to the contrary from the NUS, I would rule under 10.3-c that the BR is out; and no run can score.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by rwest

Based on what rule and what rule set? In Fed you can't get an out unless she fails to advance before a) the next pitch, b) she has left the field of play or C) the infielders have left the diamond. None of these have occurred in the OP.

If this "semi-retired" BR - how's that for a description? - is not on 1B when I have a batter and pitcher and catcher all ready (so that the ball can be put into play), she's out. You can call it whatever you want - even a look-back violation for all I care.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Steve M

If this "semi-retired" BR - how's that for a description? - is not on 1B when I have a batter and pitcher and catcher all ready (so that the ball can be put into play), she's out. You can call it whatever you want - even a look-back violation for all I care.

You'd lose that one on protest, because the lookback rule wasn't in effect until the BR was called out for failing to advance or touched first base.
________
Glass weed pipe

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by youngump

You'd lose that one on protest, because the lookback rule wasn't in effect until the BR was called out for failing to advance or touched first base.

This whole play is 3rd world, so I'm going to add a legitimate local twist - there are no protests in Pa's Fed ball.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I don't allow the pitch to be thrown. I declare "Play", wait a couple of beats (or 10) without ever getting set or maybe without even being behind F2 (so F1 is not tempted), declare "BR out for failure to advance. No runs score." Then, take the heat.

I agree the mechanics for declaring "Play" is not by the book, but I can't summon a new batter with an "active" BR, and I certainly can't summon the "active" BR into the batter's box, nor accept a pitch without a batter.

By declaring "Play", though, I at least give a couple of seconds for someone to get a clue and to start something (BR advancing, defense throwing to 1B, something...).

By rule you have to wait 20 seconds before the next pitch. However, the 10 second time for the batter to get into the box will expire first, so you'll never get to the 20 seconds. And by rule you would have to get to the 20 to call the BR out for failing to advance by the time of the next pitch. So now you have strike 4 on the batter.

No one seems to have an answer that is perfect by the book. Calling an active BR into the box is no more egregious in my mind than making the ball live with the BR out of the box. You can't get a pitch without a batter. You can't call the on deck batter into the box because you still have active BR whose status has yet to be determined.

Steve's solution, although not purely by the book, probably makes the best sense. And there is a similar, although not perfectly analogous play, to back up his position. However, I like anouncing the count a couple of times and then if nothing is done, then declare the BR out. It's the umpires mistake that caused this situation. Give the teams a chance to sort it out.

[CecilOne]

What is the NFHS rule cite for not calling "play ball" before the batter enters the box? Yes, I'm being lazy.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

What is the NFHS rule cite for not calling "play ball" before the batter enters the box? Yes, I'm being lazy.

Somewhere in the first 10 rules...

Actually, I don't believe the rules are that specific. I don't think there is anything in the rules preventing the umpire from declaring "Play" with the batter out of the box.

[ronald]

[QUOTE=IRISHMAFIA;588127]Say, "Oh ****" to myself.
That is what the umpire said.

I talked to my association's interpreter and the ruling was as MGK blue pointed out "that you can not advance during a dead ball".

He gave us this rulling in our clinic last Thursday based on a what if scenario he presented to the rules committee in Indiannopolis 2 years ago. He was actually involved in a play that he presented as the "what if".

The scenario.

Bases loaded, 2 outs, and 2 strikes on a left-handed batter. Next pitch, the batter does something with the bat, plate umpire calls it a ball but it got by the catcher and the runner from 3rd scored. After he cleans the plate, batter gets back in box, catcher and pitcher ready and catcher asks pu for help as to whether the batter swung at the last pitch. BU rules a strike. He ruled her out and no run scored for failure to advance. When he presented to the head honchos in Indy, they agreed with his ruling. Really not official as it was in a discussion. Best I can do guys.

After reading all the points and ideas presented, it sounds like an official ruling needs to be made.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ronald

I talked to my association's interpreter and the ruling was as MGK blue pointed out "that you can not advance during a dead ball".

Well, that is a pretty vague statement that generally is just not true. Runners and BRs routinely advance during a dead ball period.

He gave us this rulling in our clinic last Thursday based on a what if scenario he presented to the rules committee in Indiannopolis 2 years ago. He was actually involved in a play that he presented as the "what if".

The scenario.

Bases loaded, 2 outs, and 2 strikes on a left-handed batter. Next pitch, the batter does something with the bat, plate umpire calls it a ball but it got by the catcher and the runner from 3rd scored. After he cleans the plate, batter gets back in box, catcher and pitcher ready and catcher asks pu for help as to whether the batter swung at the last pitch. BU rules a strike. He ruled her out and no run scored for failure to advance. When he presented to the head honchos in Indy, they agreed with his ruling. Really not official as it was in a discussion. Best I can do guys.

And that is pretty good. As noted, lacking a definitive ruling, this is pretty much a common sense thing. In many cases, all participants are expected to be aware of general information like the count, outs and particular applications under specific game situations.

Let's look at the play again:

Bases loaded, 1 ball, 2 strikes. 2 outs. Next pitch is a strike that the catcher misses. The batter backs away from home plate, the runner from 3rd runs home and is safe on play at the plate. Pitcher covered. Umpire lets the dust settle, calls time, cleans the plate, looks up and sees the batter back to the side and rear of home plate.

First thing I thought was why wash there dust kicked up on a simple force play. I certainly hope that wasn't something overlooked by the umpire

The scenario doesn't indicate whether the third strike was swinging or called, so let's assume this is a case of the batter not knowing the count. The defense may not have known the count, but at least acted on a bad play. The umpire calls time when he has determined all play is finished which, IMO, would be a proper assumption if he scans the field and does not see any indication of an advancing runner or the defense attempting to retire another runner. Whether the umpire scans the field or not, he has killed the ball. And then the "Oh $hit" exception comes into play.

Like a fair/foul call on which an umpire is blocked out by a player/coach being someplace they are not supposed to be, the benefit of the call is going to the opponent of the team whose member caused the problem. In our case, this was the batter for either failing to know the count or just not being smart or coached well enough to know she should have run toward 1B.

That being the case, I would rule the BR out, discount the run scored and turn around and explain to the OC why s/he just had a run taken off the board. The fact that I errantly called time would allow for some humility on my part. However, at the end of the discussion, I'm going to feel comfortable with that ruling.

BTW, for those who would go the other way and place the BR on 1B, I don't believe that the BR has a right to 1B. I have always seen the U3K as a 'second-chance' situation. The player as already exhausted her alloted opportunities to put the ball into play and failed.

Just as the defense is required to earn the out they failed to achieve by not catching the pitch, IMO, the offense must be held to an equal level of responsibility in "earning" the right to negate the out caused by the batter's failure to put the ball into play by reaching 1B safely, not attaining it through award.

JMHO

[Tru_in_Blu]

The scenario.

Bases loaded, 2 outs, and 2 strikes on a left-handed batter. Next pitch, the batter does something with the bat, plate umpire calls it a ball but it got by the catcher and the runner from 3rd scored. After he cleans the plate, batter gets back in box, catcher and pitcher ready and catcher asks pu for help as to whether the batter swung at the last pitch. BU rules a strike. He ruled her out and no run scored for failure to advance. When he presented to the head honchos in Indy, they agreed with his ruling. Really not official as it was in a discussion.

Any possibility of this being ruled a timing play? My thinking is that before the appeal, a run scored. At that point in time, a ball had been called and the batter had yet to become a BR. On appeal is when she got her third strike as a result of the checked swing. So while she's standing in the batter's box, and the ball is live when she gets that news, is she entitled to run to 1B and force the defense to retire her before she gets there?


ASA: 5.5.B
No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A BR being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a BR. On an appeal play the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred.

NFHS: 9.1.1 Exception:
A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:
a. by the BR before touching first base;
b. by another runner being forced out:
c. by the preceding runner who is declared out because of failing to touch one of the base;
d. when a third out is declared on an appeal play resulting in a force out (This play takes precedence if enforcing of it would negate a score.);
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half-inning (the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage);
f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out.


NFHS item "d" above is interesting. If the batter does run and they tag her out or retire her at 1B, this does become an appeal resulting in a force out and would negate the run. If she walks away and goes into DB territory, and the defense does not throw to 1B for the force out, would the run count?

Ted

[ronald]

The idea with the batter did something with the bat was to indicate the pu did not think she made an attempt to hit the pitch. The bu did think so though. Sorry for the confusion.

Ron

[marvin]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

If she walks away and goes into DB territory, and the defense does not throw to 1B for the force out, would the run count?

Ted

No - because the out was still made by the BR before touching first base.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by marvin

No - because the out was still made by the BR before touching first base.

Well, a run scored before the batter became a BR. After the appeal of the check swing, and because it was a dropped third strike, does the defense have to then retire the BR? If they don't and everyone walks off the field, would the run not count?

BTW, I'm not being argumentative here, I have no problem with the call. I'm just looking to cross the t's and dot the i's. My thought is the defense can't rest with just the check swing appeal. They then need to retire the [now] BR.

Ted

[Tru_in_Blu]

Let me add a bit of a twist to this: if the pitch that the batter checked her swing on had bounced into DB territory, at that time, all runners would have been awarded 1 base.

Then when PU called "play" before the next pitch, the check swing is appealed to the BU, he says "swing", batter now has strike three. Awarded run scores or not? Batter entitled to run to 1B?

Ted

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

The scenario.

Bases loaded, 2 outs, and 2 strikes on a left-handed batter. Next pitch, the batter does something with the bat, plate umpire calls it a ball but it got by the catcher and the runner from 3rd scored. After he cleans the plate, batter gets back in box, catcher and pitcher ready and catcher asks pu for help as to whether the batter swung at the last pitch. BU rules a strike. He ruled her out and no run scored for failure to advance. When he presented to the head honchos in Indy, they agreed with his ruling. Really not official as it was in a discussion.

Any possibility of this being ruled a timing play? My thinking is that before the appeal, a run scored. At that point in time, a ball had been called and the batter had yet to become a BR. On appeal is when she got her third strike as a result of the checked swing. So while she's standing in the batter's box, and the ball is live when she gets that news, is she entitled to run to 1B and force the defense to retire her before she gets there?


ASA: 5.5.B
No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A BR being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a BR. On an appeal play the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred.

NFHS: 9.1.1 Exception:
A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:
a. by the BR before touching first base;
b. by another runner being forced out:
c. by the preceding runner who is declared out because of failing to touch one of the base;
d. when a third out is declared on an appeal play resulting in a force out (This play takes precedence if enforcing of it would negate a score.);
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half-inning (the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage);
f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out.


NFHS item "d" above is interesting. If the batter does run and they tag her out or retire her at 1B, this does become an appeal resulting in a force out and would negate the run. If she walks away and goes into DB territory, and the defense does not throw to 1B for the force out, would the run count?

Ted

First of all, it was not an appeal. It was an umpire going to his partner for help on a call. Even though it is commonly called an appeal, it is not an appeal play.

Second, a BR was out for the third out before reaching 1B. No runs score.

Third, in the situation presented, why did the PU even ask his partner about the swing?