Correct batter is on base??

[kfo9494]

One of our high schools had an intersquad game Sat and invited umpires to call the game. This is a good situation to see new umpires and get ready for the season.
This is VERY informal but the coach wanted a game feel to the practice and divided the team up with each having a coach, line-up and score.
I will try to explain this situation the best I can--
.
In the 5th inning the blue team came in to bat. The coach of the blue team wanted to make a few subs and gave them to the umpire and the other coach.
S1 was going in for B1, S2 for B3. He told the umpire behind the plate and the other scorer.
However!- S2 batted for B1 got on base, B2 struck out, S1 comes up to bat.
After three pitches (2-1)the white coach came and said they are batting out of order. The correct batter is S2 who is on first base.
>
As I was watching my head was swimming with "What the hey!"
It was so informal the blue coach just yelled that he got them confused and it was changed with no more interest.
I meant to ask but other things happened and I lost track of the question.
What is the correct procedure for this situation?

[RKBUmp]

Makes my head swim also, but I believe the correct batter should be the batter following S2 who is on first base. Because pitches had been delivered to the succeeding batter, all prior action stands and is legal. The batter follwing S2 would assume the current count of the incorrect batter.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Makes my head swim also, but I believe the correct batter should be the batter following S2 who is on first base. Because pitches had been delivered to the succeeding batter, all prior action stands and is legal. The batter follwing S2 would assume the current count of the incorrect batter.

I would tend to agree. I can't find a reference in NFHS, but I would put B4 at bat with the current count.

And it's off-topic, but next time the PU should only take one sub at a time from the offense.

[BretMan]

Batting out of order problems do make my head swim!

For one, they happen so infrequently that even if you've studied the rule, you don't get many chances to apply it in practice.

For two, the rule itself can take many twists and turns, depending on when the infraction is appealed, if the kid who is supposed to bat is on base or whether the next batter sees a pitch.

For three, the rule and all the possible interpretations take up a entire page of the rule book- it's a long read. We're supposed to memorize all that stuff?

And, for four, different softball rule sets have a slightly different take on some of the consequences of this rule, with respect to outs made on the play standing or not (and guys that do baseball too might also have to deal with some differences).

But, despite all that, I can usually muddle through, take things step-by-step and- I hope- arrive at the right call. (I will assume "high school"/NFHS rules.)

- S2/B3 leads off the inning and reaches base: If this improper batter had been appealed before her at-bat was completed, she would have been replaced by the proper batter (S1/B1) without penalty. S1/B1 would take her place in the batter's box and assume whatever ball/strike count S2/B3 had accumulated.

That didn't happen though- S2/B3 reached base. Had the defensive coach appealed the batting out of order right then, before the next batter received a pitch, then the batter who should have batted would be called out- that would be S1/B1. The improper batter's at-bat is wiped out and she is taken off the base. The next batter is the batter whose name follows the proper batter who as called out. That would be B2.

But that didn't happen either! Apparently, the defensive coach was asleep at the wheel and no appeal was made.

- B2 comes to the plate and receives a pitch: That leaglizes S2/B3's at-bat and removes any possibility of an appeal for S1/B1 failing to bat. B2 is now at the plate, S2/B3 stays on base and we continue to play ball.

But we now have another possible batting out of order appeal. Once S2/B3's at-bat became legalized, the proper batter should be whoever follows her in the line-up. That would be B4.

If the defensive coach appealed at this point, before B2 completes her at-bat, we bring B4 to the plate with whatever ball/strike count B2 had. There would be no further penalty. B5 would follow B4 in the order.

- B2 strikes out: Her at-bat is complete and the next batter should be whoever follows her in the line-up. That is S2/B3.

If B2 was appealed as an improper batter after striking out, but before the next batter saw a pitch, the batter who should have been batting would be called out (B4), B2's strike out would be negated and our next proper batter would be B5.

But that didn't happen!

- S1/B1, an improper batter, comes to the plate and receives a pitch: That legalizes B2's at-bat and makes S2/B3 the proper batter. Now, we have another batting out of order situation and another possible appeal.

If appealed while S1/B1 is still at the plate, replace her with the proper batter who assumes S1/B1's ball/strike count. But, wait...our proper batter, S2/B3, is already on base! We skip over S2/B3, since her at-bat has been legalized, and the next batter in the line-up assumes S1/B1's count. That would be B4.

And, I think, that is what should have been the final result of the play presented here- B4 is brought to the plate, inheriting S1/B1's count of 2-1 and we play on from that point, without penalty. There is one out (the strike out of B2).

Did I blow it or nail it?

[Dakota]

The correct batting order was S1, B2, S2, B4. The actual was S2, B2, and then S1 comes to bat, a pitch is thrown (several, actually, but the at bat is not complete), and then the batting out of order is appealed.

S2's at bat was made legal by the first pitch thrown to B2. B2's at bat was made legal by the first pitch thrown to S1. Since B2 is legal, and since the appeal was made during the improper batter's at bat after a pitch was thrown, the proper batter is brought to bat to assume the count.

Since the proper batter (S2) is on base, she is skipped and B4 is brought to bat with a 2-1 count.

[BretMan]

Ah, the condensed version.

Same conclusion, but I just figured I'd have a little fun with all of the ins and outs and twists and turns that can throw a monkey wrench into the call.

If you're on the field when a tricky batting out of order play comes up and your brain starts to go all foggy, one tried and true method to get the game moving along again...call somebody out...call anybody out...but just call an out!

The coaches, players and fans just know that batting out of order is an out- period. But they're hard-pressed to tell you exactly who it should be.

Pick an out, get a batter up real quick and get a pitch thrown as fast as you can to elimate the possibility of a protest- just in case you get that one coach in a hundred that really knows the rule!

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by SethPDX

... can't find a reference in NFHS...

7-1-1&2 (Penalties note # 6)

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by SethPDX

And it's off-topic, but next time the PU should only take one sub at a time from the offense.

Sorry, Seth, I disagree. Teams can make as many substitutions as they want at any time. In fact, if they are entering them at the same time, they must make the subs when they make them. If he entered both on defense at once, how could you possibly refuse one of the changes? Suppose he wants a sub for the hitter and a sub for a runner at the same time? Which one can you refuse? For the same reason, when he reports S1 for B1, and S2for B3, you are not authorized to refuse either sub (unless making one violates a rule); they are both in the game at that time. You accept them, record them, repeat them to be sure you have recorded them properly, and then report the changes to the other team.

The only prohibition against multiple changes is a statement that you don't accept future changes for the current change. You don't accept S1 for B1, and S1 is "going to re-enter". In that case, you accept S1 for B1, repeat it to the coach, and tell him that S1 is in the game until he reports B1 as re-entering when it happens.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BretMan

That didn't happen though- S2/B3 reached base. Had the defensive coach appealed the batting out of order right then, before the next batter received a pitch, then the batter who should have batted would be called out- that would be S1/B1. The improper batter's at-bat is wiped out and she is taken off the base. The next batter is the batter whose name follows the improper batter who as called out. That would be B2.

The conclusion here is correct but you made a minor mistatment in getting there. After an appeal B2 would be the correct batter; however, that's because B2 followed the *proper* batter who was called out.
________
Vaporizerinfo

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

7-1-1&2 (Penalties note # 6)

I saw that part but couldn't find a line that actually said skip ahead to the next batter if the proper batter is on base.

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The only prohibition against multiple changes is a statement that you don't accept future changes for the current change. You don't accept S1 for B1, and S1 is "going to re-enter". In that case, you accept S1 for B1, repeat it to the coach, and tell him that S1 is in the game until he reports B1 as re-entering when it happens.

Maybe I've been misinterpreting the NFHS sentence "Projected substitutions are not allowed." Of course I wouldn't take a future change like the one you described, but I thought it also meant substitute batters should only be reported when it's their turn to bat.

[Dakota]

A projected substitution is one that is not yet made, but will be made at some point in the future. One that is actually made at the time the umpire is informed is not a projected substitution.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by SethPDX

I saw that part but couldn't find a line that actually said skip ahead to the next batter if the proper batter is on base.

OK, but if the batter due up is a runner, and remains on base as #6 says, who, then, does bat? You merely skip the runner on base and go to the next batter in the order.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by youngump

The conclusion here is correct but you made a minor mistatment in getting there. After an appeal B2 would be the correct batter; however, that's because B2 followed the *proper* batter who was called out.

Agreed...but give me a break!

I type, like, seventeen words a minute and by the time I typed all that, read it, looked at the rule book, re-read it, edited for typos and shifted a couple of the paragraphs around, I'm amazed that it any sense at all.

Thanks for the correction! (Post was edited per your note.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

I often preach take one change at a time. That does not mean an umpire refuses to take a change just because an involved player is not part of the very next play.

It means that the umpire should control the exchange. IOW, don't let the coach just rattle off multiple changes or offer them in groups (i.e., "Blue, 17, 9 & 6 in for 24, 3 & 2). Force the coach to slow down and give them to you one at a time (i.e., Coach: Blue, 17 for 24; Ump: Okay. Coach: 9 for 3; Ump: Okay. etc.)

[AtlUmpSteve]

Not disagreeing with that method, Mike.

The new NCAA rule change on substitutions makes my point, I think. According to the rule, a sub is not in the game until all of the next 4 points are complete: 1) the coach reports the change to the plate umpire, 2) the plate umpire accepts the change (preferably repeating both names and numbers), 3) the plate umpire actually records the change (preferably showing the coach and getting agreement that this is the change desired), and 4) the plate umpire announces the change to the official scorer. If the reporting coach realizes that isn't the change desired, it can be stopped at any point in that process even after recorded, as long as not yet announced.

No way does it make sense to perform all 4 steps for one change, then all 4 steps for the 2nd change, then ...... As a practical matter, you take one at a time thru recording (report, accept, record, then report accept, record, etc.), then announce all subs at the same time. You maintain control, you make sure you have it right; then you finalize and announce all subs at the same time.