Really disapointed in the forum

[snorman75]

Nothing personnel boys, but just stating what you think does not cut it in a rules interpretations, and I know how to get umps pissed off and writing, but was surprise to see only one decent response.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Okay

Rule 1. Appeal PlayNot appeal play
Rule 2.3.H Does not come into effect
Rule 8.2.MDoes not come into play, sorry all there is a difference between a batter-runner and a runner.
Rule 8.7.F and subsequent effectI submit you go this one, but nothing o do with first base.
RS #1 AppealsNot a appeal

Clinic Guide

Double Base.B.4:

After the batter-runner reaches first base, both the batter-runner and fielder can use either color of the base for any defensive or offensive play. Once a runner reaches first they are no longer a batter runner, so this is a false statement. I do not have a clinic guide to check though

Don't get hung up on batter-runner v. runner. The defense may use the enter base for any play on a runner subsequent to the BR reaching 1st base or being retired.This is the "hang up." scares me you use that in your proof.

Hope that helps.

Like I said in my second post, I got the call wrong on the field. A state ASA umpire in chief agreed with my interpretation of th rule. There is no colored section of the base for th defense to use on a runner. I am going to drop a line to ASA and see if we can get a ruling.

[snorman75]

19 years umping, 5 years league commissioner and tournament director for 100+ teams, USSSA. If you can not tell I am a ump from my citations and how I set it up, ??? I still have only had ONE reply using any citations of the rules. I am blown away by that, I never state my opinion on a rule, because it does not matter, it ONLY matters what the rules says. I have seen to many umps not use the rules, but use what they think is right.

Lat me give you an example. Using USSSA slow pitch. A second foul ball on a 2 strike count is a out. Fly ball down the line runner on third. The ball is caught in FOUL territory, runner tags and comes home. Is it OK, well you should know since I am typing it that it is not. The ball is foul before it is caught hence the batter is out on the foul ball, and that is a dead ball situation so the runner can not advance. This situation was in the mechanics book, word for word, and I still had umps I worked with and in my leagues that would not call it. They did not like the rule and did not want to change. Sure enough I had to uphold a protest on this. Pissed me off even more the ump knew I would up hold the protest, knowing he was wrong, and he still stuck to his feelings, and he was wrong. P.S. I have not done USSSA since 2005, so it might have changed.

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Probably not an umpire, just a parent or coach who thinks his team got hosed, when they didn't and was hoping someone would prove him right, which they didn't.

[jwwashburn]

Friends don't let friends post drunk.

[wadeintothem]

Well - I've sat right there while NUS staff have said it becomes one base; however, I am hard pressed to find anything to back up that in writing.

Nothing about his scenario shows him to be an umpire.. and doubtless it is some lame troll.. so set that aside... if we pretend this is some jerk coach wanting an answer in a protest.. how could it be answered? "Wild bill/JJ whomever at clinic says so" is not good enough.

Personally, I'm pressed to find some support that would allow defense to use the colored bag on an appeal play from the foul side. I wouldnt mind a clarification from ASA on this.

My instincts are that it would be allowed (I'm not a fan of the double base).. but I got nothing.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by snorman75

Rule 1. Appeal PlayNot appeal play

Of course, it is an appeal play

Rule 2.3.H Does not come into effect

How can it not? It defines the piece of equipment under discussion

Rule 8.2.MDoes not come into play, sorry all there is a difference between a batter-runner and a runner.

Then maybe you should actually read down to #7. "When tagging up on a fly ball, the white or colored portion of the base may be used." Since it is not possible for a BR to "tag up" on ANY type of play, this must refer to a runner. I guess this rule does come into play.

Rule 8.7.F and subsequent effectI submit you go this one, but nothing o do with first base.

I'm sorry, but it has everything to do with any of the first three bases.

RS #1 AppealsNot a appeal

That's twice in the same post


Clinic Guide

Double Base.B.4:

After the batter-runner reaches first base, both the batter-runner and fielder can use either color of the base for any defensive or offensive play. Once a runner reaches first they are no longer a batter runner, so this is a false statement. I do not have a clinic guide to check though

Don't get hung up on batter-runner v. runner. The defense may use the enter base for any play on a runner subsequent to the BR reaching 1st base or being retired.This is the "hang up." scares me you use that in your proof.

If you had any experience with ASA interpretations and case plays you would know they use the term "batter runner" as a designation for the player who placed the ball into play throughout the scenario to avoid confusion.

You asked for an answer. I provided the correct answer with appropriate citations and you still want to argue.

If there is something in which to be disappointed, it certainly isn't this forum.

I'm done with this one.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by snorman75

19 years umping, 5 years league commissioner and tournament director for 100+ teams, USSSA. If you can not tell I am a ump from my citations and how I set it up, ???

Actually, you said this wasnt an appeal play.

YOu are a pathetic umpire if that is true.

You are asking a question that is admittedly tough and in fact covered at schools and clinics.. and what is covered at clinics may not jive up 100% with the exact wording of the rule...

But appeal play is a no brainer Umpire 101.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Clinic Guide

Double Base.B.4:

After the batter-runner reaches first base, both the batter-runner and fielder can use either color of the base for any defensive or offensive play. Once a runner reaches first they are no longer a batter runner, so this is a false statement. I do not have a clinic guide to check though

I definitely have heard it said at clinics several times.. and that is how I enforce it and understand.. but looking for appeal play when I pressed myself, left me scratching my head. I looked through the test, all asa clarifications currently posted to the web, the 2008 case book and the rule book. .. I dont have the clinic guide.

I think it would be simple enough to just fix the rule. It sure would be a lot shorter of a rule to simply be phrased the same as the clinic guide.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by snorman75

Lat me give you an example. Using USSSA slow pitch.

Problem No. 1 right there. Utrip.
Problem No. 2: You made the wrong call. The wrong call you made was to some Internet Service Provider allowing you to access the internet, the web or anything else. It's obvious you don't have the common sense God gave to a donkey to even partially reading, posting, understanding or applying what you might learn in here.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If there is something in which to be disappointed, it certainly isn't this forum.

That statement sums it up nicely.

[Skahtboi]

Hey Tom! Where is that picture you normally post in these situations???

[BretMan]

If only I had kept this...

The ASA 2006 Rule Changes and Interpretations were quite clear about the "one big base" thing. I can't find the copy I printed out way back then, and they are no longer to be found on the ASA web site.

So here's the next best thing...

Get your mitts on a 2006 Rule Book. All the changes for that year are listed in the front of the book. With respect to the double first base rule changes, you will find this:

Comments on double base changes: The rule now is basically written so that as a batter-runner while advancing to first base the color you must touch remains the same regardless of where the ball is hit or the throw comes from. Once you have passed first base the base now becomes one base made of a colored portion and a white portion, 30 X 15 vs. 15 X 15.

And once it's "one big base", the offense or defense can certainly use any part of it.

[azbigdawg]

I stopped reading when I saw USSSA... Apparently USSSA is not doing a very good job with its umpires.

As other people have stated, go to a (ASA) national clinic. Hell...got to a reasonable LOCAL clinic...Hell ask almost any half-assed umpire, and he/she will tell you the correct ruling on this one. The umpire you asked GOT IT WRONG. Mike...and everyone else in here...GOT it right.

You have anything else relevant to discuss? no? dont let the door hit you....

[mdntranger]

Originally Posted by BretMan

If only I had kept this...

The ASA 2006 Rule Changes and Interpretations were quite clear about the "one big base" thing. I can't find the copy I printed out way back then, and they are no longer to be found on the ASA web site.

From: http://downloads.asasoftball.com/ump...ndcomments.pdf

Rule 8 Section 2M 3, 6, 7, 8 and 9: They now read as follows:

Section M 3: Whenever a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion. (Removed is “by an infielder)

Effect: Once the runner returns to the white or colored base, no appeal can be made.
Comment: The Double base rule should apply whenever the batter-runner is advancing to first base regardless of where the ball was hit, infield or outfield. This also allows the batter-runner to return to either color after they have touched or missed the base no appeal can be made.

Section M 6: On balls hit to the outfield with no play on the batter-runner 1advancing to first base, the batter-runner may touch the white or colored portion. Should the batter-runner return, the runner may return to the white or colored portion.

Comment: This effects the Batter-runner on all balls hit to the outfield and there is a play on the batter-runner. The double base applies to any ball hit regardless of where. The batter runner may also return to either base, white or colored.

Section M 7: When tagging up on a fly ball, the white or colored portion may be used.

Comment: To stay consistent and call the White or Colored portions the same.

Section M 8: Fast Pitch, SP with stealing, 16-Inch Slow Pitch; on an attempted pick-off play, the runner may return to the white or colored portion.

Comment: To stay consistent and call the white and colored portions the same. This also applies to a timing play.

Section M 9: When there is a force play on the batter-runner, who touches only the white portion and collides with the fielder about to catch a thrown ball while on the white.

Comment: Removed the words “By an infielder”. The double base rule applies to all balls hit regardless of where.

Comments on Double base changes: The rule now is basically written so that as a batter-runner while advancing to first base the color you must touch remains the same regardless of where the ball is hit or the throw comes from. Once you have passed first base the base now becomes one base made of a colored portion and a white portion, 30 by 15 vs. 15 by 15

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by mdntranger

From: http://downloads.asasoftball.com/ump...ndcomments.pdf

Rule 8 Section 2M 3, 6, 7, 8 and 9: They now read as follows:

Section M 3: Whenever a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion. (Removed is “by an infielder)

Effect: Once the runner returns to the white or colored base, no appeal can be made.
Comment: The Double base rule should apply whenever the batter-runner is advancing to first base regardless of where the ball was hit, infield or outfield. This also allows the batter-runner to return to either color after they have touched or missed the base no appeal can be made.

Section M 6: On balls hit to the outfield with no play on the batter-runner 1advancing to first base, the batter-runner may touch the white or colored portion. Should the batter-runner return, the runner may return to the white or colored portion.

Comment: This effects the Batter-runner on all balls hit to the outfield and there is a play on the batter-runner. The double base applies to any ball hit regardless of where. The batter runner may also return to either base, white or colored.

Section M 7: When tagging up on a fly ball, the white or colored portion may be used.

Comment: To stay consistent and call the White or Colored portions the same.

Section M 8: Fast Pitch, SP with stealing, 16-Inch Slow Pitch; on an attempted pick-off play, the runner may return to the white or colored portion.

Comment: To stay consistent and call the white and colored portions the same. This also applies to a timing play.

Section M 9: When there is a force play on the batter-runner, who touches only the white portion and collides with the fielder about to catch a thrown ball while on the white.

Comment: Removed the words “By an infielder”. The double base rule applies to all balls hit regardless of where.

Comments on Double base changes: The rule now is basically written so that as a batter-runner while advancing to first base the color you must touch remains the same regardless of where the ball is hit or the throw comes from. Once you have passed first base the base now becomes one base made of a colored portion and a white portion, 30 by 15 vs. 15 by 15

Nice find...thank you very much.

Hopefully one less troll in the house....

[wadeintothem]

There it is!

thank you very much!

Now the troll can.. uh pass this along to his alleged "state UIC"