Really disapointed in the forum

[snorman75]

OK, fast set up play on a runner at first from foul territory on a caught ball. Defense uses colored section to get the runner. Is this OK?

Then I pissed off forum for not backing up any of the answers with anything but "this is what I think."

Some took it as a challenge and did very good, like below.
Others, well it is also below.

Originally Posted by mdntranger

From: http://downloads.asasoftball.com/ump...ndcomments.pdf

Rule 8 Section 2M 3, 6, 7, 8 and 9: They now read as follows:

Section M 3: Whenever a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion. (Removed is “by an infielder)

Effect: Once the runner returns to the white or colored base, no appeal can be made.
Comment: The Double base rule should apply whenever the batter-runner is advancing to first base regardless of where the ball was hit, infield or outfield. This also allows the batter-runner to return to either color after they have touched or missed the base no appeal can be made.

Section M 6: On balls hit to the outfield with no play on the batter-runner 1advancing to first base, the batter-runner may touch the white or colored portion. Should the batter-runner return, the runner may return to the white or colored portion.

Comment: This effects the Batter-runner on all balls hit to the outfield and there is a play on the batter-runner. The double base applies to any ball hit regardless of where. The batter runner may also return to either base, white or colored.

Section M 7: When tagging up on a fly ball, the white or colored portion may be used.

Comment: To stay consistent and call the White or Colored portions the same.

Section M 8: Fast Pitch, SP with stealing, 16-Inch Slow Pitch; on an attempted pick-off play, the runner may return to the white or colored portion.

Comment: To stay consistent and call the white and colored portions the same. This also applies to a timing play.

Section M 9: When there is a force play on the batter-runner, who touches only the white portion and collides with the fielder about to catch a thrown ball while on the white.

Comment: Removed the words “By an infielder”. The double base rule applies to all balls hit regardless of where.

Comments on Double base changes: The rule now is basically written so that as a batter-runner while advancing to first base the color you must touch remains the same regardless of where the ball is hit or the throw comes from. Once you have passed first base the base now becomes one base made of a colored portion and a white portion, 30 by 15 vs. 15 by 15

I love the wording here, but the only problem is 2006 rule changes, and the 2007 rules state a runner can use both sections on a tag, this old version is much better.


I guess I got it right on the field, but for the wrong reason. ASA feels the theory of the rule lets both the runner and the defense use both sections on a tag. I have added the letter at the end.

Boys it has been interesting. I knew with a little prodding you all would work on this. Some of you could only insult, interesting.

Thanks

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Actually, you said this wasnt an appeal play.

YOu are a pathetic umpire if that is true.

You are asking a question that is admittedly tough and in fact covered at schools and clinics.. and what is covered at clinics may not jive up 100% with the exact wording of the rule...

But appeal play is a no brainer Umpire 101.

Sorry man it is a protest not a appeal. Can you tell me why?

A response like this should tell many of you why new people are not becoming umps, or least not staying with it. We drive people away. If you do not get what I am saying, just ask your assigner.



"My name is Kevin Ryan and I am the Supervisor of Umpires for the ASA. Craig Cress sent this to me and asked that I respond to you. Yes you got the call right. Rule 8 Section 2 M 6 and 7 would cover this play. Section 2 M 6 says On ball hit to the outfield with no play on the batter-runner advancing to first base the batter-runner may touch the white or colored portion. Should the batter-runner return to 1B, the runner and the defense can use the white or colored portions. Section 2 M 7 says When tagging up on a fly ball the white or colored portion of the base may be used. In both case we describe that the defense or the offense can use both colors. Regretfully we can not add every scenario of what might happen so we use the theory if the offense can use both colors then the defense can also. We will look at the wording this year to see if we can add a few words to help clarify.

Thanks for the question.



Kevin Ryan

ASA Supervisor of Umpires

[BretMan]

Gee, I'm really disappointed in YOU.

As an ASA umpire, you should keep up with their latest rule changes and interpretations. When the safety base rules were updated in 2006, there were various interpretations issued that explained this exactly as the posters who responded.

After the batter-runner has safely reached first base (ie: is no longer a batter-runner), the double base becomes, essentially, one big 15" X 30" base. At that point, "white" or "orange" do not apply. The defense or offense can use either portion of the bag.

In short, the answers you got were 100% correct. And if you were keeping up with your sanctioning body's rule changes, you would know that!

[wadeintothem]

Darn, guess you'll have to mosey away and find a better forum.

I understand. No hard feelings.

[MichaelVA2000]

There's always eteamz: http://www.eteamz.com/fastpitch/boar...tch/index.cfm?

[NCASAUmp]

Listen, you did nothing to follow up on our answers, including mine. The answer was simple, and you chose to not ask for clarification. If a coach asks you about a ruling, do you tell him, "rule 8, section 7, article S states that the runner is out if she..."? No, you simply explain the rule in plain English.

You didn't ask us to cite the rule. At best, requesting a citation was implied. So don't get p1ssy with us just because we aren't mind-readers.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by snorman75

OK, I posted this question a few weeks ago and the closest I got to a answer was "asa changed the rules"

Are you kidding me? No citations, nothing, just I think this is it. Well you should know it does not matter what the you think, it matter what you know and prove.

I have to tell you reading the ASA rules there is no double first base on any plays made on a runner for the defense. Did forget to mention to site my answer on checking with a state's head ASA umpire?

I know I have a real problem with umps that go on feeling, not the rules. I have to assume you all did that with not ONE citation to any rules.

Here is the question again see if you can do any better, or prove me wrong.

" Double first call from foul territory on a runner

OK, fast pitch high school Softball NY ASA rules

No outs runner on first. Pop up to first baseman, caught in foul ground, beats the runner back to first, BUT uses the colored section, not the white, to make the play.
Partner, on the bases, calls her out. First base coach appeals that she can not use colored section. I uses the the rule that the first baseman can use the colored base when the play comes from foul territory.

Well I changed my mind after reading the rules, 8.2.M.4 which uses the words batter-runner not runner.

The question is in 8.2.M.7 that states both sections of first can be used in a tag up. Does this mean offensively and defensively or just offensively as I read it?

Let me know what you all think.

Thanks"

I highlighted a section of your OP to show you that everyone who answered you, did exactly as you asked. They let you know what they thought. Now, if you had said, "please provide me with the rule" or something of that nature, I am sure they would have been more than happy to do so.

I have to agree with the others who have basically replied that they are disappointed in you for failing to accurate and succinctly state what you wanted.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by snorman75

...Here is the question again see if you can do any better, or prove me wrong. ...

What an

But, to respond to your challenge,

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Wow, that was pretty harsh.

Than maybe you should delete it???????

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Than maybe you should delete it???????

I guess I'm just disappointed in the fact that there are a lot of GREAT umpires on this forum who dedicate a lot of their free time to help others out, and somebody pisses and moans that they weren't help by, essentially, volunteers.

[Dholloway1962]

Probably not an umpire, just a parent or coach who thinks his team got hosed, when they didn't and was hoping someone would prove him right, which they didn't.

[snorman75]

19 years umping, 5 years league commissioner and tournament director for 100+ teams, USSSA. If you can not tell I am a ump from my citations and how I set it up, ??? I still have only had ONE reply using any citations of the rules. I am blown away by that, I never state my opinion on a rule, because it does not matter, it ONLY matters what the rules says. I have seen to many umps not use the rules, but use what they think is right.

Lat me give you an example. Using USSSA slow pitch. A second foul ball on a 2 strike count is a out. Fly ball down the line runner on third. The ball is caught in FOUL territory, runner tags and comes home. Is it OK, well you should know since I am typing it that it is not. The ball is foul before it is caught hence the batter is out on the foul ball, and that is a dead ball situation so the runner can not advance. This situation was in the mechanics book, word for word, and I still had umps I worked with and in my leagues that would not call it. They did not like the rule and did not want to change. Sure enough I had to uphold a protest on this. Pissed me off even more the ump knew I would up hold the protest, knowing he was wrong, and he still stuck to his feelings, and he was wrong. P.S. I have not done USSSA since 2005, so it might have changed.

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Probably not an umpire, just a parent or coach who thinks his team got hosed, when they didn't and was hoping someone would prove him right, which they didn't.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by snorman75

OK, I posted this question a few weeks ago and the closest I got to a answer was "asa changed the rules"

Are you kidding me? No citations, nothing, just I think this is it. Well you should know it does not matter what the you think, it matter what you know and prove.

I have to tell you reading the ASA rules there is no double first base on any plays made on a runner for the defense. Did forget to mention to site my answer on checking with a state's head ASA umpire?

I know I have a real problem with umps that go on feeling, not the rules. I have to assume you all did that with not ONE citation to any rules.

Here is the question again see if you can do any better, or prove me wrong.

" Double first call from foul territory on a runner

OK, fast pitch high school Softball NY ASA rules

No outs runner on first. Pop up to first baseman, caught in foul ground, beats the runner back to first, BUT uses the colored section, not the white, to make the play.
Partner, on the bases, calls her out. First base coach appeals that she can not use colored section. I uses the the rule that the first baseman can use the colored base when the play comes from foul territory.

Well I changed my mind after reading the rules, 8.2.M.4 which uses the words batter-runner not runner.

The question is in 8.2.M.7 that states both sections of first can be used in a tag up. Does this mean offensively and defensively or just offensively as I read it?

Let me know what you all think.

Thanks"

Okay

Rule 1. Appeal Play
Rule 2.3.H
Rule 8.2.M
Rule 8.7.F and subsequent effect
RS #1 Appeals

Clinic Guide

Double Base.B.4:

After the batter-runner reaches first base, both the batter-runner and fielder can use either color of the base for any defensive or offensive play.

Don't get hung up on batter-runner v. runner. The defense may use the enter base for any play on a runner subsequent to the BR reaching 1st base or being retired.

Hope that helps.

[snorman75]

Nothing personnel boys, but just stating what you think does not cut it in a rules interpretations, and I know how to get umps pissed off and writing, but was surprise to see only one decent response.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Okay

Rule 1. Appeal PlayNot appeal play
Rule 2.3.H Does not come into effect
Rule 8.2.MDoes not come into play, sorry all there is a difference between a batter-runner and a runner.
Rule 8.7.F and subsequent effectI submit you go this one, but nothing o do with first base.
RS #1 AppealsNot a appeal

Clinic Guide

Double Base.B.4:

After the batter-runner reaches first base, both the batter-runner and fielder can use either color of the base for any defensive or offensive play. Once a runner reaches first they are no longer a batter runner, so this is a false statement. I do not have a clinic guide to check though

Don't get hung up on batter-runner v. runner. The defense may use the enter base for any play on a runner subsequent to the BR reaching 1st base or being retired.This is the "hang up." scares me you use that in your proof.

Hope that helps.

Like I said in my second post, I got the call wrong on the field. A state ASA umpire in chief agreed with my interpretation of th rule. There is no colored section of the base for th defense to use on a runner. I am going to drop a line to ASA and see if we can get a ruling.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by snorman75

Rule 1. Appeal PlayNot appeal play

Of course, it is an appeal play

Rule 2.3.H Does not come into effect

How can it not? It defines the piece of equipment under discussion

Rule 8.2.MDoes not come into play, sorry all there is a difference between a batter-runner and a runner.

Then maybe you should actually read down to #7. "When tagging up on a fly ball, the white or colored portion of the base may be used." Since it is not possible for a BR to "tag up" on ANY type of play, this must refer to a runner. I guess this rule does come into play.

Rule 8.7.F and subsequent effectI submit you go this one, but nothing o do with first base.

I'm sorry, but it has everything to do with any of the first three bases.

RS #1 AppealsNot a appeal

That's twice in the same post


Clinic Guide

Double Base.B.4:

After the batter-runner reaches first base, both the batter-runner and fielder can use either color of the base for any defensive or offensive play. Once a runner reaches first they are no longer a batter runner, so this is a false statement. I do not have a clinic guide to check though

Don't get hung up on batter-runner v. runner. The defense may use the enter base for any play on a runner subsequent to the BR reaching 1st base or being retired.This is the "hang up." scares me you use that in your proof.

If you had any experience with ASA interpretations and case plays you would know they use the term "batter runner" as a designation for the player who placed the ball into play throughout the scenario to avoid confusion.

You asked for an answer. I provided the correct answer with appropriate citations and you still want to argue.

If there is something in which to be disappointed, it certainly isn't this forum.

I'm done with this one.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Clinic Guide

Double Base.B.4:

After the batter-runner reaches first base, both the batter-runner and fielder can use either color of the base for any defensive or offensive play. Once a runner reaches first they are no longer a batter runner, so this is a false statement. I do not have a clinic guide to check though

I definitely have heard it said at clinics several times.. and that is how I enforce it and understand.. but looking for appeal play when I pressed myself, left me scratching my head. I looked through the test, all asa clarifications currently posted to the web, the 2008 case book and the rule book. .. I dont have the clinic guide.

I think it would be simple enough to just fix the rule. It sure would be a lot shorter of a rule to simply be phrased the same as the clinic guide.