Really disapointed in the forum

[snorman75]

19 years umping, 5 years league commissioner and tournament director for 100+ teams, USSSA. If you can not tell I am a ump from my citations and how I set it up, ??? I still have only had ONE reply using any citations of the rules. I am blown away by that, I never state my opinion on a rule, because it does not matter, it ONLY matters what the rules says. I have seen to many umps not use the rules, but use what they think is right.

Lat me give you an example. Using USSSA slow pitch. A second foul ball on a 2 strike count is a out. Fly ball down the line runner on third. The ball is caught in FOUL territory, runner tags and comes home. Is it OK, well you should know since I am typing it that it is not. The ball is foul before it is caught hence the batter is out on the foul ball, and that is a dead ball situation so the runner can not advance. This situation was in the mechanics book, word for word, and I still had umps I worked with and in my leagues that would not call it. They did not like the rule and did not want to change. Sure enough I had to uphold a protest on this. Pissed me off even more the ump knew I would up hold the protest, knowing he was wrong, and he still stuck to his feelings, and he was wrong. P.S. I have not done USSSA since 2005, so it might have changed.

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Probably not an umpire, just a parent or coach who thinks his team got hosed, when they didn't and was hoping someone would prove him right, which they didn't.

[jwwashburn]

Friends don't let friends post drunk.

[wadeintothem]

Well - I've sat right there while NUS staff have said it becomes one base; however, I am hard pressed to find anything to back up that in writing.

Nothing about his scenario shows him to be an umpire.. and doubtless it is some lame troll.. so set that aside... if we pretend this is some jerk coach wanting an answer in a protest.. how could it be answered? "Wild bill/JJ whomever at clinic says so" is not good enough.

Personally, I'm pressed to find some support that would allow defense to use the colored bag on an appeal play from the foul side. I wouldnt mind a clarification from ASA on this.

My instincts are that it would be allowed (I'm not a fan of the double base).. but I got nothing.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by snorman75

19 years umping, 5 years league commissioner and tournament director for 100+ teams, USSSA. If you can not tell I am a ump from my citations and how I set it up, ???

Actually, you said this wasnt an appeal play.

YOu are a pathetic umpire if that is true.

You are asking a question that is admittedly tough and in fact covered at schools and clinics.. and what is covered at clinics may not jive up 100% with the exact wording of the rule...

But appeal play is a no brainer Umpire 101.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by snorman75

Lat me give you an example. Using USSSA slow pitch.

Problem No. 1 right there. Utrip.
Problem No. 2: You made the wrong call. The wrong call you made was to some Internet Service Provider allowing you to access the internet, the web or anything else. It's obvious you don't have the common sense God gave to a donkey to even partially reading, posting, understanding or applying what you might learn in here.

[BretMan]

If only I had kept this...

The ASA 2006 Rule Changes and Interpretations were quite clear about the "one big base" thing. I can't find the copy I printed out way back then, and they are no longer to be found on the ASA web site.

So here's the next best thing...

Get your mitts on a 2006 Rule Book. All the changes for that year are listed in the front of the book. With respect to the double first base rule changes, you will find this:

Comments on double base changes: The rule now is basically written so that as a batter-runner while advancing to first base the color you must touch remains the same regardless of where the ball is hit or the throw comes from. Once you have passed first base the base now becomes one base made of a colored portion and a white portion, 30 X 15 vs. 15 X 15.

And once it's "one big base", the offense or defense can certainly use any part of it.

[azbigdawg]

I stopped reading when I saw USSSA... Apparently USSSA is not doing a very good job with its umpires.

As other people have stated, go to a (ASA) national clinic. Hell...got to a reasonable LOCAL clinic...Hell ask almost any half-assed umpire, and he/she will tell you the correct ruling on this one. The umpire you asked GOT IT WRONG. Mike...and everyone else in here...GOT it right.

You have anything else relevant to discuss? no? dont let the door hit you....

[mdntranger]

Originally Posted by BretMan

If only I had kept this...

The ASA 2006 Rule Changes and Interpretations were quite clear about the "one big base" thing. I can't find the copy I printed out way back then, and they are no longer to be found on the ASA web site.

From: http://downloads.asasoftball.com/ump...ndcomments.pdf

Rule 8 Section 2M 3, 6, 7, 8 and 9: They now read as follows:

Section M 3: Whenever a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion. (Removed is “by an infielder)

Effect: Once the runner returns to the white or colored base, no appeal can be made.
Comment: The Double base rule should apply whenever the batter-runner is advancing to first base regardless of where the ball was hit, infield or outfield. This also allows the batter-runner to return to either color after they have touched or missed the base no appeal can be made.

Section M 6: On balls hit to the outfield with no play on the batter-runner 1advancing to first base, the batter-runner may touch the white or colored portion. Should the batter-runner return, the runner may return to the white or colored portion.

Comment: This effects the Batter-runner on all balls hit to the outfield and there is a play on the batter-runner. The double base applies to any ball hit regardless of where. The batter runner may also return to either base, white or colored.

Section M 7: When tagging up on a fly ball, the white or colored portion may be used.

Comment: To stay consistent and call the White or Colored portions the same.

Section M 8: Fast Pitch, SP with stealing, 16-Inch Slow Pitch; on an attempted pick-off play, the runner may return to the white or colored portion.

Comment: To stay consistent and call the white and colored portions the same. This also applies to a timing play.

Section M 9: When there is a force play on the batter-runner, who touches only the white portion and collides with the fielder about to catch a thrown ball while on the white.

Comment: Removed the words “By an infielder”. The double base rule applies to all balls hit regardless of where.

Comments on Double base changes: The rule now is basically written so that as a batter-runner while advancing to first base the color you must touch remains the same regardless of where the ball is hit or the throw comes from. Once you have passed first base the base now becomes one base made of a colored portion and a white portion, 30 by 15 vs. 15 by 15

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by mdntranger

From: http://downloads.asasoftball.com/ump...ndcomments.pdf

Rule 8 Section 2M 3, 6, 7, 8 and 9: They now read as follows:

Section M 3: Whenever a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion. (Removed is “by an infielder)

Effect: Once the runner returns to the white or colored base, no appeal can be made.
Comment: The Double base rule should apply whenever the batter-runner is advancing to first base regardless of where the ball was hit, infield or outfield. This also allows the batter-runner to return to either color after they have touched or missed the base no appeal can be made.

Section M 6: On balls hit to the outfield with no play on the batter-runner 1advancing to first base, the batter-runner may touch the white or colored portion. Should the batter-runner return, the runner may return to the white or colored portion.

Comment: This effects the Batter-runner on all balls hit to the outfield and there is a play on the batter-runner. The double base applies to any ball hit regardless of where. The batter runner may also return to either base, white or colored.

Section M 7: When tagging up on a fly ball, the white or colored portion may be used.

Comment: To stay consistent and call the White or Colored portions the same.

Section M 8: Fast Pitch, SP with stealing, 16-Inch Slow Pitch; on an attempted pick-off play, the runner may return to the white or colored portion.

Comment: To stay consistent and call the white and colored portions the same. This also applies to a timing play.

Section M 9: When there is a force play on the batter-runner, who touches only the white portion and collides with the fielder about to catch a thrown ball while on the white.

Comment: Removed the words “By an infielder”. The double base rule applies to all balls hit regardless of where.

Comments on Double base changes: The rule now is basically written so that as a batter-runner while advancing to first base the color you must touch remains the same regardless of where the ball is hit or the throw comes from. Once you have passed first base the base now becomes one base made of a colored portion and a white portion, 30 by 15 vs. 15 by 15

Nice find...thank you very much.

Hopefully one less troll in the house....

[wadeintothem]

There it is!

thank you very much!

Now the troll can.. uh pass this along to his alleged "state UIC"

[Jaycec]

This may have been interesting if it were a difficult play to call.

Nice fishing trip, guy.

[NM FP Ump]

USSSA seems to be in line with ASA on this issue:

USSSA Seventh Edition:
RULE 8. BASE RUNNING
Sec. 17. The batter-runner is out:
K. If using the double base:
1. A batted ball hitting the white portion is declared fair and a batted ball hitting only the colored potion is declared foul.
2. Whenever a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion. (ASA 8.2.M.3) The batter-runner is out when there is a play being made at first base and the batter-runner touches only the white portion, providing the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to first base. This is treated the same as missing the base. Once the runner returns to the white, no appeal can be made.
Exceptions:
A. If the ball is thrown from the foul side of first base line.
B. When an errant or missed throw pulls the defensive player into foul ground.
C. If using the double base, and there is a force play by an infielder on the batter-runner, who touches only the white portion and collides with the fielder about to catch a thrown ball while on the white. (ASA 8.2.M.9)
Penalty: Interference is ruled, the ball is dead, the batter-runner is out, and all other runners are returned to the base last occupied at the time of interference.
3. The batter-runner or runner may touch the white or colored base when:
A. advancing or returning on balls hit to outfield with no play being attempted. (ASA 8.2.M.6)
B. tagging up on fly ball. (ASA 8.2.M.7)
C. returning on an attempted pick-off play. (ASA 8.2.M.8)

I could add more about USSSA vs ASA, but I won't go there In my limited experience, most rule sets are the same, but there are always some differences. When it comes to the double base, USSSA and ASA seem to be "on the same page."

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by snorman75

..." ...No outs runner on first. Pop up to first baseman, caught in foul ground, beats the runner back to first, BUT uses the colored section, not the white, to make the play.
Partner, on the bases, calls her out. ..."

Originally Posted by snorman75

...Not appeal play...Not a appeal...

Originally Posted by snorman75

...19 years umping, 5 years league commissioner and tournament director for 100+ teams, USSSA...

TILt!

[snorman75]

Originally Posted by mdntranger

From: http://downloads.asasoftball.com/ump...ndcomments.pdf

Rule 8 Section 2M 3, 6, 7, 8 and 9: They now read as follows:

Section M 3: Whenever a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion. (Removed is “by an infielder)

Effect: Once the runner returns to the white or colored base, no appeal can be made.
Comment: The Double base rule should apply whenever the batter-runner is advancing to first base regardless of where the ball was hit, infield or outfield. This also allows the batter-runner to return to either color after they have touched or missed the base no appeal can be made.

Section M 6: On balls hit to the outfield with no play on the batter-runner 1advancing to first base, the batter-runner may touch the white or colored portion. Should the batter-runner return, the runner may return to the white or colored portion.

Comment: This effects the Batter-runner on all balls hit to the outfield and there is a play on the batter-runner. The double base applies to any ball hit regardless of where. The batter runner may also return to either base, white or colored.

Section M 7: When tagging up on a fly ball, the white or colored portion may be used.

Comment: To stay consistent and call the White or Colored portions the same.

Section M 8: Fast Pitch, SP with stealing, 16-Inch Slow Pitch; on an attempted pick-off play, the runner may return to the white or colored portion.

Comment: To stay consistent and call the white and colored portions the same. This also applies to a timing play.

Section M 9: When there is a force play on the batter-runner, who touches only the white portion and collides with the fielder about to catch a thrown ball while on the white.

Comment: Removed the words “By an infielder”. The double base rule applies to all balls hit regardless of where.

Comments on Double base changes: The rule now is basically written so that as a batter-runner while advancing to first base the color you must touch remains the same regardless of where the ball is hit or the throw comes from. Once you have passed first base the base now becomes one base made of a colored portion and a white portion, 30 by 15 vs. 15 by 15

I love the wording here, but the only problem is 2006 rule changes, and the 2007 rules state a runner can use both sections on a tag, this old version is much better.


I guess I got it right on the field, but for the wrong reason. ASA feels the theory of the rule lets both the runner and the defense use both sections on a tag. I have added the letter at the end.

Boys it has been interesting. I knew with a little prodding you all would work on this. Some of you could only insult, but I am sure you have bigger problems then insulting me.

Thanks

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Actually, you said this wasnt an appeal play.

YOu are a pathetic umpire if that is true.

You are asking a question that is admittedly tough and in fact covered at schools and clinics.. and what is covered at clinics may not jive up 100% with the exact wording of the rule...

But appeal play is a no brainer Umpire 101.

Sorry man it is a protest not a appeal. Can you tell me why?

A response like this should tell many of you why new people are not becoming umps. We drive people away. If you do not get what I am saying, just ask your assigner.



"My name is Kevin Ryan and I am the Supervisor of Umpires for the ASA. Craig Cress sent this to me and asked that I respond to you. Yes you got the call right. Rule 8 Section 2 M 6 and 7 would cover this play. Section 2 M 6 says On ball hit to the outfield with no play on the batter-runner advancing to first base the batter-runner may touch the white or colored portion. Should the batter-runner return to 1B, the runner and the defense can use the white or colored portions. Section 2 M 7 says When tagging up on a fly ball the white or colored portion of the base may be used. In both case we describe that the defense or the offense can use both colors. Regretfully we can not add every scenario of what might happen so we use the theory if the offense can use both colors then the defense can also. We will look at the wording this year to see if we can add a few words to help clarify.

Thanks for the question.



Kevin Ryan

ASA Supervisor of Umpires

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by snorman75

Boys it has been interesting. I knew with a little prodding you all would work on this. Some of you could only insult, but I am sure you have bigger problems then insulting me.

Perhaps insulting the forum without asking for what you really wanted wasn't your best move, either. If you want something in particular, ask. Don't ask for opinions when you want specific rule citations.

I'm done with this guy. He's a troll with an inferiority complex. Hope I never call with him.