Control (out) or not?

[Andy]

Originally posted by booker227
Take the easy way out. Secured possession at the time of the tag is an out, what happens after the tag is a non factor to the call. Sell the call and get on with it.

Booker...I agree that, by rule, we have an out with this play as described. However, in real time, on the field, this play will be very difficult to sell as an out.

As I said three pages ago, the amount of time between the tag and the ball popping out of the glove is very small. Everybody will see the ball coming loose and the umpire calling an out. I submit that even the defensive team will think that you have blown the call.

I am not saying to shy away from making the tough calls or to take the easy way out, I'm just saying that it may not be as easy as "Sell the call and get on with it."

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve

That's not totally true. According to ASA Rules, a valid catch is established if "the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove total control of it and/or that the release of the ball is voluntary and intentional." In the words of Henry Pollard, that meant that if the umpire felt that the fielder COULD have released the ball voluntarily, then you should consider that a catch.

Nonetheless, I suspect we are picking at nits, and all have about the same interpretation; we are somewhat limited by the description. If the tag was complete, we saw control, and then the runner kicked the ball out, we have an out. If we didn't see control, then we don't have an out. How long does it take, or how long was the time lapse here? Can't be described, so why pick at it? Bottom line, you have a tougher sell on the out, and we don't guess outs, so if you aren't sure, the runner is safe.

Like Andy, I made this statement way back. After reading all the variations, I still see the issue the same. If we clearly saw control after the tag, we have an out; everyone agrees on that, and agrees we sell that call. The disagreement is how long is long enough to establish control, and that is now where there may be disagreement, even if we all actually saw the play; it's called judgment, not a rule interpretation dispute. Absent clear control after the tag in the judgment of the calling umpire, we have a safe call.

[CecilOne]

I prefer to be correct, make the correct call (whatever I JUDGE it to be) and worry about selling it or whether anyone disagrees or not later.