Control (out) or not?

DaveASA/FED · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 30, 2005, 01:57pm

Here is the play: R1 rounds 3rd heading home, F2 receives ball and tags R1 prior to reaching plate. BUT, as she is completing the tag on the up swing (swipe tag) the mitt hits the runners knee and the ball falls out as she is bringing the mitt up. To better describe the situation, F2 was pulled to behind LH batters box to get throw, she is coming up to make tag and swings from her R to L contacting R1's outstretched foot up her leg and then as she is coming up with it R1's other shin/knee contacts the mitt and the ball comes out.

So now the question: Do we have an out? How do you determine how long she has to have control of the ball before calling the out?

I see it as control has to be maintained until completion of the play. Meaning in this case until she brings the mitt up to complete the tag, and / or tries to make another move with it. A fellow blue thought the contact with the lead foot and leg gave her the out, and the following knee / shin contact that knocked the ball loose didn't matter. What say you all?

Rachel · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 30, 2005, 03:30pm

There needs to be voluntary release to have a catch, or be in the process of a transfer to the throwing hand to make another play. I say safe.

CecilOne · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 30, 2005, 03:37pm

I basically agree with Rachel, but if control by F2 was obvious and not a question until and including the tag on the first leg AND if the ball being knocked loose by the second leg was separate from the tag, it could be an out.

IRISHMAFIA · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 30, 2005, 04:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveASA/FED
Here is the play: R1 rounds 3rd heading home, F2 receives ball and tags R1 prior to reaching plate. BUT, as she is completing the tag on the up swing (swipe tag) the mitt hits the runners knee and the ball falls out as she is bringing the mitt up. To better describe the situation, F2 was pulled to behind LH batters box to get throw, she is coming up to make tag and swings from her R to L contacting R1's outstretched foot up her leg and then as she is coming up with it R1's other shin/knee contacts the mitt and the ball comes out.

So now the question: Do we have an out? How do you determine how long she has to have control of the ball before calling the out?

I see it as control has to be maintained until completion of the play. Meaning in this case until she brings the mitt up to complete the tag, and / or tries to make another move with it. A fellow blue thought the contact with the lead foot and leg gave her the out, and the following knee / shin contact that knocked the ball loose didn't matter. What say you all?

Speaking ASA

As you describe the play, the call is out.

From your description, there is no doubt that F2 had control of the ball when tagging the runner's lead leg. This action satisfies 8.7.B, the runner is out. Subsequent action cannot change that. There is no requirement for the defender to withdraw the ball and demonstrate control in this situation, that only applies to a catch. This is a tag, not a catch.

Now, if the ball came loose on the initial contact, then you have F2 not having control of the ball when tagging the runner who should be ruled safe as defined by rule 8.8.G.1

DNTXUM P · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 30, 2005, 06:48pm

I know better than to disagree with Mike, but -- I agree with Rachel. The only question should be "was there a voluntary release of the ball". If not, there was no control and no out. If you determine the release was voluntary, then you have an out.

streamdoc · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 30, 2005, 11:38pm

As John can tell you, I'd have an "Out", then a "Safe" because I still have a nasty habit of making the call too quickly. That pizza fund would be growin' by a buck on that play. Slowing down my calls is one of my things to work on in 2006. In all seriousness, I'd agree with Rachel on this one and have a "Safe", however long it takes me to get there.

Happy & Healthy New Year to you all (even the trolls).

IRISHMAFIA · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 09:44am

Quote:

Originally posted by DNTXUM P
I know better than to disagree with Mike, but -- I agree with Rachel. The only question should be "was there a voluntary release of the ball". If not, there was no control and no out. If you determine the release was voluntary, then you have an out.

Not asking to you agree. I am asking you to support Rachel's ruling in the book.

SRW · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 12:28pm

Quote:

Originally posted by streamdoc
As John can tell you, I'd have an "Out", then a "Safe" because I still have a nasty habit of making the call too quickly. That pizza fund would be growin' by a buck on that play. Slowing down my calls is one of my things to work on in 2006. In all seriousness, I'd agree with Rachel on this one and have a "Safe", however long it takes me to get there.

Happy & Healthy New Year to you all (even the trolls).

Even I can verify your double calls..

SC Ump · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 12:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveASA/FED
BUT, as she is completing the tag...

For it to be a catch on a batted or thrown ball, a ball must be released voluntarily. This is not the primary concern in a tag play.

In a tag, the ball must be held securely during the tag.

With the above statement, it sounds as if the tag was not yet judged by the offical to be completed and thus I believe it should be safe.

AtlUmpSteve · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 02:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SC Ump

For it to be a catch on a batted or thrown ball, a ball must be released voluntarily. This is not the primary concern in a tag play.

In a tag, the ball must be held securely during the tag.

With the above statement, it sounds as if the tag was not yet judged by the offical to be completed and thus I believe it should be safe.

That's not totally true. According to ASA Rules, a valid catch is established if "the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove total control of it and/or that the release of the ball is voluntary and intentional." In the words of Henry Pollard, that meant that if the umpire felt that the fielder COULD have released the ball voluntarily, then you should consider that a catch.

Nonetheless, I suspect we are picking at nits, and all have about the same interpretation; we are somewhat limited by the description. If the tag was complete, we saw control, and then the runner kicked the ball out, we have an out. If we didn't see control, then we don't have an out. How long does it take, or how long was the time lapse here? Can't be described, so why pick at it? Bottom line, you have a tougher sell on the out, and we don't guess outs, so if you aren't sure, the runner is safe.

IRISHMAFIA · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 02:58pm

Speaking ASA

If you want to be picky, a voluntary release is not necessarily required for a catch to be valid. Read the definition of Catch in Rule 1. The player showing complete control of the ball is enough.

The voluntary release is an additional method to validate the catch. If it were a requirement, balls dropped on the exchange would, by rule, for the umpire to rule an already retired safe which would contradict 1.CATCH.A.

Again, there is nothing in the rule to support a safe call as the original scenario specifically states that the tag was made while F2 was in possession of the ball.

BTW, there is also nothing in the book mentioning or requiring the defender to "complete" a play to validate the actions during it.

bkbjones · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 03:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by streamdoc
As John can tell you, I'd have an "Out", then a "Safe" because I still have a nasty habit of making the call too quickly. That pizza fund would be growin' by a buck on that play. Slowing down my calls is one of my things to work on in 2006. In all seriousness, I'd agree with Rachel on this one and have a "Safe", however long it takes me to get there.

Happy & Healthy New Year to you all (even the trolls).

Here's my take:
Who or what caused the release of the ball? When was the ball released?

The tag was made. THAT was the play. The fielder had control of the ball when the play was made.

Unlike the NBA, we don't have "continuation." Once the tag is made, we have an out. That is one play. Once we have a play, and an out, whatever happens next is part of another play (or throwing the ball around the horn, or throwing the ball back to the pitcher, etc.).

What or who caused the ball to come out? The runner. What would be different between the description given here and the runner, even inadvertently, kicking the ball out, or swiping the ball out of the glove like ARod did?

I say we have an out and $1 in the pizza fund.

I would also ask you to think about survivability. Which explanation is easier?

1. "No, coach, your runner caused the ball to come loose AFTER the catcher had plainly tagged her out. She tagged her on one leg. Your runner caused the ball to come out well after the tag with the action of her other leg. I have an out. Let's play ball."

2. "Coach, I know your catcher tagged her out. Then the runner knocked the ball loose with her other leg after the tag."

Now which one of these is going to a) make sense, b) cause you less grief, and c) be more correct under the rules of the game? IMHO, it is going to be 1.

As always, if ya show me in the book where she's safe, I'll call her safe, Til then, I have an out.

IRISHMAFIA · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 01, 2006, 08:11am

Quote:

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve

Nonetheless, I suspect we are picking at nits, and all have about the same interpretation; we are somewhat limited by the description. If the tag was complete, we saw control, and then the runner kicked the ball out, we have an out. If we didn't see control, then we don't have an out. How long does it take, or how long was the time lapse here? Can't be described, so why pick at it? Bottom line, you have a tougher sell on the out, and we don't guess outs, so if you aren't sure, the runner is safe.

Steve, I believe any limitation of the description insists the runner be ruled out. The scenario was specific in that the tag was made on the lead leg and as F2 was withdrawing the glove with the ball, the now-retired runner's leg/knee kicked the ball from the glove. Is it possible at in real time that might not necessarily have been what happened? Yes, but that is not what was offered to us. To presume any other scenario would be ignoring the facts offered.

BTW, the definition of a catch is irrelevant to this play.

TexBlue · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 02, 2006, 12:24am

Control, catch, voluntary release ..... is all mundane to the original question and scenario.

If the player had control of the ball after the first tag ( I read in the original post where she did ) she's out. Any action after that by a knee, hand reaching into the mitt, whatever, is irrelevant as far as this rule goes. If, as stated, the knee knocked the ball out, she's out on the tag on the foot. As Mike stated, it meets the conditions set in 8.7.B.

Andy · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 02, 2006, 01:02am

It looks to me like we have another classic example of a play that we can read, think about, picture in our minds, dissect it, get the rule book, look up the definition of a tag, etc, etc, then post our thoughts.

In real time, on the field, we have catch, tag, contact with the runner's other leg, ball pops loose. All of these actions happen in the space of probably less than a second. Everybody in the joint sees the ball come loose. Steve and John both mentioned survivability and selling the call. I'm inclined to think that if this were me making the call, I would have a safe call due to the ball coming out.

Perhaps not correct by rule, as Mike has pointed out. I'm not taking the easy way out, I'm saying that in real time, it may be very difficult to determine a definite time between the tag and the ball coming out due to hitting a different part of the runner.