Control (out) or not?

[scottk_61]

I have read with interest all of the comments on this play and the discussion of control etc...........

Let me say that for those of you who would have ruled "safe", You wouldn't fare well with Henry P and his clinics or ASA's rulings.

Henry is famous for giving an example of a fielder "catching" the ball on the back side of the glove, not in the pocket, and then throwing the ball to turn a double play.

I believe it was Arizona that used to do this quite frequently in the NCAA ranks, I know it was a shortstop,
The player would catch the ball on the back of the glove (controlling the ball), step on the bag, grab it with the free hand and then fire it to first. This was quick, so quick that many people never realized that the ball never went into the glove.

Technically, the ball wasn't in the glove but it was controlled, some times she messed it up and fumbled it away, it didn't take away the out that had been made.

Succeeding action or continuation cannot eliminate the control that was there to begin with.

As the play was origianally described, I have an out.
I also probably have a discussion with the coach coming, but I know how to tell a coach that the control was there for the tag (which made an immediate out) and then following action caused the ball to come loose but "THE OUT STANDS"

I had a play very nearly like the one described at a Men's Major National a few years back, I ruled the out etc and got a well done from my UIC at that tournament. I saw the same thing at the Women's Armed Forces Championship that I worked again the UIC (Walt Sparks) gave a well done to the umpire.

I really think some of you need to really think about the play and what happens, break it down into individual parts and you will change your mind on your rulings that you have offered.

[Al]

Scott,

Even after reading your comments and other good arguments for an out call I still think the right call is safe. I base this on the USSSA rule of control of the ball. In this case there is not enough time to show clear evidence of the ball being in control. If anything it shows the ball was not firmly in control, or it wouldn't have been knocked loose in a split second after the tag. I know in an open field tag where the ball drops out of the glove the rule is safe. It's ruled safe because the ball was dropped upon contact. We have no proof that the ball would not have been dropped... even if the glove was not hit by the runners knee.

In the case where the ball is loosed from a glove (before control can be shown) because another part of a runners body immediately hit the glove I do not see firm control of the ball, and would not call a runner out. The runner commited no infraction by intentionally hitting of the catchers glove. I think we have a case of judging what constitutes control when there is no time to see it proven. I was a catcher from little league through high school and remember how important it was to control the ball when getting smashed at the plate. There were times I dropped the ball, and every single one of those times (no matter if I touched the runner once or twice before the ball fell out of my glove the runner was called safe. The call was made cause there was no proof of control.

Must hurry out the door.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Actually, Al, you can only call what is offered in the scenario. By the original post, the tag was made. The player tagged the runner with the ball in the glove.

The original scenario subsequently notes the ball is then kicked out by the knee of the leg not tagged. This showed F2 did indeed have control of the ball after the tag was made.

In real action, only God knows what any of us may have called on this play. However, when Dave breaks it down the way he did, he offered us the insight necessary to develop the play in our mind and apply the rules.

Maybe this would be different in U-trip, but I would like to think it would not be.

[Al]

Hi Mike,

Yes Mike, the tag was made, but as I said before I believe the rules state that there needs to be proof that the tag was a controlled tag...For all we know the ball could have been dropped even if the girl didn't have her glove hit by the runners knee. There was no time for the catcher to show the ball was controlled. If the ball were NOT dropped we would know for sure the girl had control on the tag to the leg, but because the girl dropped the ball we don't know if she had secure control or not. Having control of the ball while swiping at a moving target is not something I am going to guess on. (especially if the girl was using a catchers mitt) I think as the rule is written it's proper to call the girl safe in a situation like this.

When there's a hard slide I'm not going to assume the ball was held securely when it's dropped and the fielder has not shown me it was a controlled tag, just as I'm not going to call an out on an open field tag before the ball is shown to be held securely.

However, if the tag were made and held up to the umpire then momentarily bobbled or dropped we would have an out, because the fielder had already shown the umpire it was a proper tag, but I'm not going to speculate or guess that the tag was as the rule requires when not shown to me.

Sec.33 in the USSSA rule book states...

"A tag out is the putting out of a runner who is not touching a base, by touching the runner with a live ball, or the glove or hand when the live ball is SECURELY HELD therein by a fielder. The ball is NOT considered as having been held securely if it is juggled or dropped AFTER the touching unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder".

I have gone over this play in my mind thinking of the above rule on what makes a tag-out an out, and I believe an out call is not justified. To many it would be justified based on their understanding of the rules, but I have to go on my view of what the rules mean. To me the rule says to wait to see if the fielder met the requirement of the tag-out rule. The rule calls for a secure tag not just a tag.

[mcrowder]

You're adding (or, well, subtracting) assumptions to the original post.

The OP specifically said that the umpire COULD tell that the ball was held securely when the tag was made, and then was knocked loose during the second contact. If you could see that, you have an out.

I agree with you that in a case where you have a tag followed by a loose ball, you have to KNOW there was control during the tag to have an out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Al

Sec.33 in the USSSA rule book states...

"A tag out is the putting out of a runner who is not touching a base, by touching the runner with a live ball, or the glove or hand when the live ball is SECURELY HELD therein by a fielder. The ball is NOT considered as having been held securely if it is juggled or dropped AFTER the touching unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder".

A couple of things here.

How do you know the runner didn't deliberately kick the ball out of F2's glove in the OP? I know that didn't happen because if it did, Dave would have let us know.

Based solely on the wording above, if F3 tags out a runner for out #3 and drops the ball leaving the field, the runner isn't out. Absurd? Absolutely, but I'm basing it solely on what you have quoted. You have either omitted something, or there is an interpretation addressing this issue that you didn't publish.

Taking the wording of the rule noted above as absolute, as a player, I'm sliding hard into every player holding the ball, even on a force out. If lucky, the player will drop the ball and the umpire will call me safe.

Like many other softball rules, I understand what you quoted, but I doubt that is exactly what the authors meant. Of course, I could be wrong and if U-trip wants it that way, it's their game.

[Al]

You wrote..."How do you know the runner didn't deliberately kick the ball out of F2's glove in the OP? I know that didn't happen because if it did, Dave would have let us know".

Mike,

I know the ball wasn't deliberately kicked out of the catchers mitt ...Had that been the case the call would have been out and we wouldn't have this thread going.

IMO, the intent of the rule is a tag MUST be made with secure control of the ball. In your opinion, and other experenced umpires on the board, the ball must have been considered to have been securely held... yet it ended up on the ground before proof was given. It looks like we have a judgment call of the rules in this case and I would suspect there would be many umpires that disagree with me, as there would be with you. I suspect there would be many catchers that had the call go opposite ways in similar cases, depending on who was umpiring. I'd like to ask Roy Campanella (sp?) or Yogi Berra what the pro baseball umpires call on this play, and if they all call it the same way, or not. As a catcher myself I know first hand from hearing it over and over again from my coaches and my Dad (especially when playing little league and pony league) the need to squeeze the ball so it doesn't fall out of my mitt before I can show the umpire my tag was made with secure control of the ball.

As I said a few time now, the way the play was explained one would have to guess there was control (in the face of a dropped ball) before the runner even finished her slide and the fielder had a chance to show the umpire the ball was firmly held in her mitt.

I feel like I am going in circles so this will be my last comment on this subject to answer your following comment...

You wrote..."Based solely on the wording above, if F3 tags out a runner for out #3 and drops the ball leaving the field, the runner isn't out. Absurd? Absolutely, but I'm basing it solely on what you have quoted. You have either omitted something, or there is an interpretation addressing this issue that you didn't publish".

I don't understand your point here at all. The wording of the rule is clear to me. All that the rule requires is the ball must be firmly held WHEN the tag is being made. The rule on tag-outs says the ball is not considered as having been HELD securely if juggled or dropped after the TOUCHING unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder. After the touching the umpire makes the call based on the facts he sees. If he sees a controled tag he calls out, if not he calls safe. If a tag is made the call must be made at that time, so a fielder dropping the ball while leaving the field is moot. So based solely on what I quoted a girl walking off the field and then dropping the ball means nothing because the play was over the second the umpire judged the fielder had control, or not, at the time of the tag.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Al
After the touching the umpire makes the call based on the facts he sees. If he sees a controled tag he calls out, if not he calls safe.
[/B]

Thank you. You just made the point! The fielder made the tag while controlling the ball because the OP told us so! The control of the ball was not lost UNTIL AFTER THE TAG, also noted in the OP.

Just think, only 10 monthes and 6 days before Dave can lock this thread

[Al]

Here we go again...

The rule on tag-outs says the ball is NOT considered as having been HELD securely if juggled or dropped AFTER the TOUCHING ((unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder)). What does that tell the readers of the rule about a non deliberately knocked loose ball? Does not the rule imply that an unintentional knocking loose of a ball brings no penalty to the runner and he would be called safe? I hope someone else that agrees with my understanding of the tag-out rule can better make the point I am trying to make.

Again, a tag is not merely the placing of a mitt on a runner but the placing of a mitt on the runner while having a firm control of the ball. In the case we are considering the umpire would have no idea if the ball was held securely, but would know for sure the fielder did not prove he had a firm hold of the ball as it was knocked loose by the runners knee.

In an open field tag an out is not credited if the ball is dropped before the fielder has shown he had control, so why would an umpire do anything differently in the case we are discussing?

Let's consider this play: An open field swipe tag is made to a runners chest and the runners arm unintentionally hits the glove as the fielder is pulling the glove away from the runner and the ball is dropped. Would the umpire just assume the tag was securely held, or would he/she say the tag was good and the girl is out??? The fact that she dropped the ball is what is used to show she had no control of the ball. It's the same thing we have in our play at the plate, is it not?

This is almost like the Abbott and Costello "WHO's on first" routine. I don't know...third base!

[CecilOne]

It all comes down to whether "as she is completing the tag on the up swing (swipe tag) the mitt hits the runners knee and the ball falls out as she is bringing the mitt up"

means:
(1) the ball was secure enough for the "up swing" to have "the ball falls out " because "the mitt hits the runners knee"
or
(2) the ball falls out as "she is bringing the mitt up" because it was not secure in the first place.

The OP gives both alternatives as the question. It can't be both, no additional assuming is needed, and the umpire on the play must JUDGE what happened, i.e.earn his/her pay. I can't imagine that 100% of us would make the same call.
If (1) is true as most of us think, the runner is out regardless of what happens after the "tag".
If (2) is true as others think, the runner is safe.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Al
Here we go again...

The rule on tag-outs says the ball is NOT considered as having been HELD securely if juggled or dropped AFTER the TOUCHING ((unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder)). What does that tell the readers of the rule about a non deliberately knocked loose ball? Does not the rule imply that an unintentional knocking loose of a ball brings no penalty to the runner and he would be called safe? I hope someone else that agrees with my understanding of the tag-out rule can better make the point I am trying to make.

Again, a tag is not merely the placing of a mitt on a runner but the placing of a mitt on the runner while having a firm control of the ball. In the case we are considering the umpire would have no idea if the ball was held securely, but would know for sure the fielder did not prove he had a firm hold of the ball as it was knocked loose by the runners knee.

In an open field tag an out is not credited if the ball is dropped before the fielder has shown he had control, so why would an umpire do anything differently in the case we are discussing?

Let's consider this play: An open field swipe tag is made to a runners chest and the runners arm unintentionally hits the glove as the fielder is pulling the glove away from the runner and the ball is dropped. Would the umpire just assume the tag was securely held, or would he/she say the tag was good and the girl is out??? The fact that she dropped the ball is what is used to show she had no control of the ball. It's the same thing we have in our play at the plate, is it not?

This is almost like the Abbott and Costello "WHO's on first" routine. I don't know...third base!

Great now we're back to apples and oranges. This is not a "catch". Two different acts and set of parameters.

I'm done.

[scottk_61]

I see a black cloud on the horizon..........
Methinks this one is gonna become the neverending story of BS

I quit,

[varefump]

I agree with you Al and disagree with you Mike (ASA umps never change their minds, and I should know, I was one for 20 years)...

I poised this play to my softball rules mentor, Jay Miner, who is Author and Columnist for Referee Magazine and the NASO Baseball and Softball Interpreter, and he replied with, and I quote:

""ASA and NFHS both say the tag must be securely held by the fielder and the ball is not considered as having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped by the fielder after tagging the runner, unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand(s) or glove of the fielder, a la, Alex Rodriguez knocking the ball out of Bronson Arroyo's glove. The NCAA tag definition does not mention the fielder dropping the ball after the tag.

The play in question obviously can be pontificated into the night with sound arguments made on both sides of the issue and I've heard convincing arguments for calling the runner either out or safe.

I've carefully read your play and have clearly pictured it in my mind. In my game, in the absence of the runner deliberately knocking the ball loose, I'm calling the runner safe, and believe me, I like outs. I'd rule, even if
I had to fudge a little, that F2 did not have control of the ball. I would have a difficult time explaining to a coach why the runner was out when the ball ended up on the ground when the runner did nothing illegal on the play.
In a bang-bang play at the plate, I would definitely have a hard time deciphering: "Yes, there is a tag out but then the ball is knocked away after the out, so the runner is out." Now, no official should fear making tough calls, but I believe in making realistic, believable and acceptable
calls. In my opinion you'd have a tremendous argument and never, ever be forgotten for calling the runner out in your play as opposed to calling the runner safe. I believe the ball in your play was dislodged on the continuing action of the tag and I'd call the runner safe. If the tag was made and the fielder and the runner still had body contact after
straightening up their bodies and the ball fell to the ground, I'd assertively reaffirm my out call as in my opinion, the continuing action of the tag was completed. Now, I know we're discussing softball but after viewing thousands and thousands of plays in major league baseball, on one of my 37 cable televisions (yes, that's right-37) over many, many years, I can never recall an out call on the type of play listed in the forum.""

... 'Nuff said, and this will be my last entry.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by scottk_61
Methinks this one is gonna become the neverending story of BS

Will not!

C'mon, guys, lighten up.

Posted situations always leave visualization of the details to the reader, so we have to take what the posters say about judgments that were made pretty much at face value, unless there is detail in the situation description to show otherwise.

Progressive detail on a posted situation is also common, since none of us are always going to think of all of the important detail all the time.

[booker227]

Take the easy way out. Secured possession at the time of the tag is an out, what happens after the tag is a non factor to the call. Sell the call and get on with it.